Greek banks closed, capital controls in place.

In the short term it will hurt their economy while in the long run it is just good government policy to balance the books and will result in lower interest rates if they do have to borrow sometime in the future (like when their is a bad recession and they want to deficit spend to stimulate the economy). Four or five times I have said it won't help (short to medium term) and is simply an unavoidable thing which they have to do.

To get growth they have to open up their economy especially the stupid shit which blocks competition (both I and the articles have given lots of example). To reduce debt they need to sell off state assets (there are a huge number of SOEs ) and use the money raised to pay down debt.

How have I not made this clear the other times I wrote this? I don't know how many different ways I can write it.

And Thucydides was a historian.

That is one of the reforms the government needs to do and which the EU has been getting them to agree to do but which the Greeks never actually do despite agreeting to it in wring numerous times. The EU has a whole list of specific instructions which they have been trying to get the Greeks to do for half a decade now. Each time there is a new slice of bailout the Greeks promise up and down they will do it but it never happens.

How did you miss this? It has constantly been in the news for half a decade and has been mentioned repeatedly in previous thread.

The main way balancing the budget during regular times helps is that when a bad down turn happens you have access to credit and can deficit spend in order to do counter cyclical stimulus. Or even better run a surplus during the regular times and up times then spend down the surplus during the down turn to maintain spending levels.

Greece's big problem is they never did that, ran huge deficits for decades, and then when the down turn did happen they had a debt crisis and no one would lend them any money at all. Austarity during a down turn is the last thing you want to do but Greece had no choice. Again, they were in this situation because of their own actions so it is hard to feel sorry for them especially when they refuse to help themselves (by liberalizing and reducing debt via privitizations ).
They should have been doing both of those things all through the 90's and 00s but they were living in a fool's paradise especially when they were let into the Euro, when they really shouldn't have (even at the time the news reports were saying the Greek numbers were cooked), and then they went hog wild with debt as soon as they could borrow at the lower interest rates which being in the Euro zone got them.

The part that's in your head, then?

Did you read this post?

The problems prior to the financial crisis are clearly not due to austerity. However, that has failed as a solution and since it has made things worse, it would be crazy to continue with it in the pretense that it will eventually make things better.

So, austerity is involved in that, how? How did you miss the actual question? MAoHS and I have only asked it five or six times.

I think the aim is that if you have a lower budget, you use it more efficiently. Alas, Greece was never going to down that road without a fight.

In Greece's case, they needed to devalue, which is impossible to do in the Euro, leaving only internal devaluation as the lever.

Austerity was always going to be the price for joining the Euro and falling furthest behind the northern economies, it was baked in from the beginning and even a junior economist could've told them that.

They had time, EU investment and low interest rates with which to ensure they weren't the one being wedgied by the children of the Hansa. All of which they cheerfully pissed away.

I also think the EU were arrogant enough to think they'd have a much tighter fiscal/political union for when the inevitable happened.

That or they never realised Germany was a ravenous mercantile beast in their midst.

I have only answered it five or six times so maybe you should start listening because I am running out of ways to restate the obvious.

Greece has to cut spending because it has no other choice. No, that is not desirable but they have no money and no credit because they have so completely fucked up for so long they have absolutely no choice. That is not ideal but that is reality. They cannot print money and they cannot find anyone to loan them money at any price so no they have to make hard choices at the worst possible time.

Where Rick is being a fool is he seems to think the Greeks have the option to not balance their budget. They do not. No credit, no savings, and no control over monitory policy means the fools have fucked themselves. The best they can hope for is to sell off state assets (which they have plenty of), use that money to pay down debt, and use the budget resources thus freed up to do more productive things.

How can you not understand this basic fact when people keep telling you it over and over?

What is your major malfunction? Seriously. Greece isn't doing austarity because it wants to, Greece is doing it because every private equity market on Earth is closed to them. They have absolutely no ability to borrow. They have absolutely no savings. They have absolutely no ability to print money. They MUST, as in no other option, live with in their means.

Sure, it would be great if they could goose their economy via deficit spending but that is not an option. No one will loan them money to do that. I have pointed this simple fact out to you over and over again but your poor damaged Irish brain never seems to understand it. No one will loan them money, they cannot print money or even control central bank rates so if they stay in the Euro they have zero choice but to cut until expenditures match income. That is as good as it gets for them in this situation.

Why can't they declare bankruptcy?

Grossly simplified: Because bankruptcy would lock them out of the euro system. The ECB couldn't provide Greek banks with money, they would crash and burn within days. To pay wages and make internal payments they'd have to create their own currency (IOUs on paper for a time). Of course no one would accept such toilet paper for imports. And Greece imports about 50 per cent of its food.

Even in such an event, Greece would still be a member of the eurozone. There is no way out for good reason. They could leave the EU and introduce their own super soft currency once again. The economic damage would be immeasurable. For example, something like 20 per cent of Greece's GDP come from tourism - forget it when there's turmoil in the streets.

Staying in is hard. Austerity in small doses does work but good sense should be applied. Growth is more important. That's a fact some Northerners don't seem to understand.

Leaving would be even harder. It would create a third world country in Europe. Meaning even larger implications when you have a look at a map. Greece no defending its borders because of no money means free entry into the heart of Europe for pretty much anyone who wants to - millions of African refugees, IS... also, China. They want a foothold in the Med badly and a crumbling Greece would be very willing to lease out a few islands for Chinese military bases.

Yea, it's a problem. With global strategic consequences. It's why I'm completely opposed to the populist referendum BS.

There is no other option because the creditors are presenting no other option. However it is well within their gift to do so, and if they want the Greek economy to proceed on a sound basis in the future, which is also in their interests, then they must.

Yesterday the IMF broke ranks.

Let's look at your statements in this thread. You insisted that Greece would be out of the Euro by virtue of a default on Tuesday(!) You claimed that austerity is working in Spain and elsewhere(!) And you apparently equate a recognition that austerity has failed with an insistence that austerity is the root cause of the problem (despite my clearly saying otherwise). If you'll pardon the pun, not a good balance sheet. You're talking shit.

1

No international law covering it at this time.

And one more bit of bullshit while we're at it.

It's been dipping up and down a bit but Greece has been running a primary budget surplus for several months. The demand of the creditors is that they run a primary surplus of more than 4%. Syriza want something more like 1-2%.

So... The Babbling stupidity continues. You still have no explination as to where the magical money will come from other than other people, not you, should give it to them. Not going to happen. The ECB was willing to be a lender of last resort to bridge th, ever so briefly, but they want some assurances that the past bad behavior, the stuff that lead Greece into penury and destination, would stop and that they would actually start spending less then they make.

Again, not an ideal policy but past profilgacy had ruined their credit so no private lender would give them a dime so something had to change.

They have wasted all other options and are at the end of the rope, they can not balance the budget due to having no credit, so no income must (at a minimum) equal expenses. That is the definition of austarity and it is a last resort but the best spend thrifts and dead beats can hope for.

Politically, no one else in Europe is going to give them money just to continue the policies which resulted in failure, voters won't let them, so that hard truth is they have to stop being dumb asses even if it economically hurts. The size of the hurt is directly proportional to how fucking moronic they were in their spend thrift ways.

Actually, I am one of the other people since my government is part of the Eurozone (and has played a disgraceful part in this charade).

And "not going to happen" is just a repetition of the problem - the intransigence of creditor institutions and their refusal to recognise reality.

I said they would default on Tuesday, which they did, and they most certainly should be tossed out because of it. They should never have been let in and should have been tossed out years ago. All we are seeing now is the painful process of the nonworthy deselect ing themselves from the group by their own incompetence.

Ahh, the Irish are dead beats just like the Greeks. You are all on the PIIGS farm with them so no wonder you kept irrationally demanding nonsensical things. You are just another pig at the trough.

To Ireland's credit people were rational enough to recognize how badly they had fucked up and decided to start taking the measures to change their sorry state of affairs. The Greeks have their heads so far up their own asses they are still babbling shite, much like you (though unlike the rest of the Irish population).

Why is Spain now growing faster than Germany then? They took their bitter medicine balanced their budget and liberalized their economy. Moron.

The moral of the story here is get the pain over with, make the hard choices, and then set conditions to start growing again. Don't drag it out with half measures like the Greeks did.

Nope. This is what you said.

And with that and your descent into Dayton-level xenophobia, I'm out.

So... Nothing but the usual derp and lies out of Rick? What is to be expected out of the "special child" who claims the bankrupt guy with no credit should just borrow more? Idiot.

Yes and no. They have no other choice if they wish to remain in the Euro zone. It is more and more obvious, though, that remaining there is harmful to Greek interests. So they do have a choice. My point in asking the question (and no, you haven't answered it) is that Germany does have the option of a solution that keeps Greece in the Euro and does not require back breaking austerity. Why has Germany decided the best option is either crushing Greece or pushing them out? The answer to that question is not "the Greeks are lazy corrupt fuck-ups."

spain iy growing faster because they are starting at a lower level. the better an economy gets the harder it is to grow more. see: china as the prime example.

Spain is a disaster area, with a growth rate far less than Germany's in most recent years.

Spain may not be Greece, but it is the next worst thing right now.

That sounds like the right idea, or at least a right idea. That's a refreshing change from the usual among the creditor-side actors in this debacle.

You're not even getting your news from FOX "News;" you're getting it from gturner's ass. That's a seriously pathetic lie you're tossing out there.

Greek military spending is on the rise - even during this crisis. Greeks are wary of Turkey taking advantage of the situation as well as possibly needing men with guns to put down dissent.

Oh, I agree but their economy has finally turned the corner and is growing nicely now in a sustainable fashion. If they can keep this up for a few years they will be in good shape.

Here's a Daily Mail story for you @Dinner.

A whole island pretending to be blind to get benefits, 8,500 pensioners who faked being aged over 100 and lawyers who claim to earn just €12,000: New book reveals how Greeks cheated THEMSELVES into ruin ​