Sutherland Springs, TX church shooting

We can't say for certain (though it seems probable) that the neighbor saved lives; unless the killer wrote out a hitlist, we'll never know.

But the neighbor stopped the killer from continuing unabated. And that's huge. The neighbor was on the scene far faster than the police could've been.

Also, I'm hearing the neighbor had an AR-15. Anyone confirm that?

The music is the only element that endured, in my opinion, because the ballet component was just a product of avant-garde art for art’s sake. The concept of the elders sacrificing a virgin is pretty strong material though.

I have a recording of Stravinsky conducting the piece. Wish I liked it more, but it’s more of a historical curiosity than a good version of the Rite.

Do you like Tchaikovsky? Swan Lake, Sleeping Beauty, and Nutcracker are all fun as hell too.

Yes. It's been reported that he had his own AR-15.

How do. You know he was going to go back in and finish the job? How do you even know what the job was? Did you talk to him? Maybe he was all done and running away and they just saved us a long trial and some dumb ass bullshit?

How do you know any of that? If it is what you would have done if you were him that is somewhat of a guess into the mind of someone who did something extremely horrific you have no experience with. Maybe after the rage was done he saw all the bodies and regretted what he did and was going to run away and not shoot anyone else. I am not sad that he died, but you are only guessing about the mindset of a person who you have no knowledge of and it is obviously during a moment of psychological chaos for the guy. Who knows what he was planning on doing.

That being said I agree the best thing was to take him down at that point from a logical standpoint of saving lives if you could, but we do not know what his next actions were going to be if he was left to do whatever he wanted.

I have a toddler grand daughter myself and I can relate. But in almost all of these shootings the bad guy takes the cowards way out and doesn't have to face the music for their actions. Dylan Roof is the rare exception and

thank you for not calling it an "assault rifle". Hopefully more & more people will realize the AR-15 is not just a military platform - it has hunting uses (predators for sure, deer not so much but it fits certain strategies well) and who doesn't that low recoil?

When you get into the legal use of force in defense of self or other persons, there's the concept of stopping the threat. "Shooting to kill" or "shooting to wound" are perpetuated by the movies and people that just don't know any better. It's the whole reason why police are trained to shoot until the person is no longer a threat or they reach slide lock. You shoot to stop the threat because people with mortal wounds can still inflict harm. The bellwether incident for my generation was an incident in New Orleans back in the mid-1980's. Two NOPD officers, one male and one female, responded to a noise/possible domestic violence complaint at an apartment building. They knocked on the door and a 6'-4", 250lb man answered the door. When they stated their business, the man attacked the officers and the fight was on. Both officers emptied their revolvers into his torso at point blank range. They scored 12 solid hits on his center of mass. He was terribly, mortally wounded. But, because of the effect of the drugs in his system, he was still able to fight and kill both officers with his bare hands before he bled out.

In this instance, the shooter was obviously a clear threat to the people in and around the church. When the neighbor engaged the shooter with his own firearm, the shooter dropped his rifle and ran to his vehicle. Thus, the neighbor stopped the immediate threat and I'm extremely grateful that he did so.

True Tererun nobody knows if he would have shot more people, but would you risk it if the guy was still armed & functional? You might as well let a dog with rabies into your home because science might find a cure before he attacks you. Being shot by the bystander (making him drop his weapon) guaranteed he wouldn't shoot anyone else anytime soon.

What about if he illegally obtained the guns? What sort of regulations can prevent someone from breaking the law?

When seconds count, the police are only minutes away!

Again, finding a way to address straw purchases would go a long way in cutting down on illegally obtained guns, and a universal background check would go a long way in addressing straw purchases.

Did I hear right on the news this morning that he reloaded eleven times??? Or was it just that he had 11 mags on him?

But doesn't a straw purchase involve someone with a clean record buying a gun and selling it to someone else? How will you prevent that from happening? Are there laws that prevent people from freely buying and selling their own property?

I was gonna say, I wish the armed citizen had been quicker to arrive. But I saw him on the news this morning saying the same thing himself, while almost in tears. He done his best.

I think the authorities would have to prove the straw purchaser sold the gun with knowledge that the person receiving it was ineligible. Or worse, was buying it to commit a crime.

How do we prevent that from happening is the question. I don't know exactly the best way to do that, but as I said, with a universal background check we would at least be able to identify who it is that is purchasing the guns that keep ending up being used in crimes as well as who is selling those guns to them.

I think if you read what I said I have no argument with the decision to kill him. What I am saying is we do not know what the guy was going to do next. The thoughts going through his mind would be so far away from our experience our guesses may not be correct. So saying he definitely saved lives may not be true at all as the shooter may have been on the way to killing himself or surrendering like Dylan roof. I agree you shoot anyway because you don't know, but there are certainly more compelling arguments that the shooter was on his way to kill himself or escape the scene to a place he would not have personal reasons to continue shooting.

In the case of the Vegas shooter there seems to have been more shootings planned. In this case the shooter may have very well been done shooting.

He was stopped 450 rounds to late. Which is why your "solution" is and always will be a failure. My solution would have prevented this mass shooting from ever happening.

I've identified my own faulty logic. We can already identify the whos and whats with straw purchasers when they buy from licensed gun dealers. A universal background check would allow us to trace every every legal purchase of a particular gun.

So let the guy, who just mowed down a church, be on his merry way because "lets see what he does next?'

But it does nothing to stop illegal purchases.

It would curtail a major source of guns that are illegally purchased as well as make the price of black market guns go up.

That is not what I said. Why are you trying to p pretend I took that stance?

On Sunday I heard it reported that it was a Mini-14, but I'm thinking that it was a Ruger AR-clone, which would be ironic since that's the rifle the murderer used.

The neighbor engaged the murderer barefoot, BTW.

It looks like the shooter did his one year in prison at the brig at MCAS Miramar down the street from where I grew up. I didn't know they did long term imprisonment there.

I don't believe they did that when the Navy controlled the place and was doing Top Gun there.

He grabbed his rifle, an empty magazine and a box of cartridges, and loaded the mag while running barefoot toward the sound of shooting. When he got on the scene, he didn't even know how many rounds he'd loaded. He said he saw the goblin was wearing body armor, so he aimed his first shot for the side of the torso, between the front and back panels. That made the bad guy drop his rifle and run for his vehicle. The good guy got off two more shots, both hitting (the neck, I think it said).
Let me reiterate:

I heard he hit him twice. Once in the torso, and once in the leg. I'm surprised dude was able to live long enough to shoot himself. An AR round is supposed to tear somebody up more often than not.

Your solution is fascist.

Your solution would also only leave guns in the hands of criminals.

It might curtail straw purchases but the odds are that it will have little effect on the black market price since most illegal guns are stolen and not purchased in a store.

Straw purchases aren't that big of a problem. Easier to steal the gun.

I figured @Dinner was in favor of a total gun ban. What do you have against people defending themselves? You know that's a basic human right correct?