Universal Basic Income

Discussion in 'The Red Room' started by Chaos Descending, Apr 16, 2020.

  1. Tererune

    Tererune Troll princess and Magical Girl

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    We are at a time when we could allocate UBI be limited to certain spending. That would fall more into socialism which UBI supporters do not want. The idea of UBI is any corporation could compete for the money, which is why Yang likes it. We do not have to dump the whole chunk into cash. We could say here is whatever for edibles, some for housing, some for utilities, and then leave the rest for cash. Then if you get a job you have your bills covered so you can then make your life better through savings or purchasing as you need.

    What is the purpose of UBI? It should be to cover the basic needs for someone in society. If you want more luxurious means then you get a job and pile some more money in there. Things like EBT cards could deal out benefits which are earmarked to certain categories, and then you could enhance that with your own funding.
  2. Paladin

    Paladin Overjoyed Man of Liberty

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    And, thus, lots of people who aren't particularly talented at art will be subsidized into staying with it, rather than being motivated to be productive elsewhere.
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  3. Tererune

    Tererune Troll princess and Magical Girl

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    Jealous much?
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  4. Fisherman's Worf

    Fisherman's Worf I am the Seaman, I am the Walrus, Qu-Qu-Qapla'!

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    I'd be curious if you have ever tried opting out of municipal utilities, national roads, your local fire department, local police protection, and the national postal service.

    But we already know the answer, hypocrite.
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  5. Diacanu

    Diacanu Comicmike. Writer

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    Come on, we both know it's a show.
  6. Spaceturkey

    Spaceturkey i can see my house

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    I suppose that depends on if one sees addiction as a "life style choice" or a trauma response/illness?
    I work with people like this... most of'em aren't going to "get better", some of them truly can't because trying to get clean, get a job, house, etc., while dopesick and starving in a leaky tent isn't realistic. There weren't supports for them when they could've been "repaired" so now all that's left is orgs like the one I work for trying to keep them fed and from freezing to death.
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  7. Spaceturkey

    Spaceturkey i can see my house

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    how do you expect them to get any better if they can't afford to produce, let alone practice?
  8. Jenee

    Jenee Driver 8

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    It’s sad isn’t it. That governments would rather invest in war and destruction or billionaires, than offer up what, to them would be a minor inconvenience to help other humans.
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  9. Steal Your Face

    Steal Your Face Anti-Federalist

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    Both can be done from home.
  10. Paladin

    Paladin Overjoyed Man of Liberty

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    I don't.

    But neither do I expect the taxpayers to subsidize them while they do so.
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  11. Lanzman

    Lanzman Vast, Cool and Unsympathetic Formerly Important

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    OR, lots of people who aren't particularly talented at art will be able to devote the time necessary to get better at it.

    Art, like any other aptitude, is a strange thing. Some people have an easier time picking up the necessary skills than others, and for visual art in particular you need to be good at spatial relationships and color perception, but almost anyone can produce good results with enough practice.
  12. Paladin

    Paladin Overjoyed Man of Liberty

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    All true, but if people can make a living at it--regardless of how good or successful they become--many will persist where they shouldn't.

    If 10,000 people get a subsidy to pursue art, the vast majority of them will never produce anything of significance (true of any field, not just art). And since failure doesn't weed them out of the field, they go on being non-productive rather than being compelled to find another line of work.

    I'm all for pursuing art if that's your passion, but do it on your own dime, and if you aren't successful at it, find something else to do.
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  13. Lanzman

    Lanzman Vast, Cool and Unsympathetic Formerly Important

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    This is where I think you're missing the point. A UBI is a step toward the Star Trek economy. People wouldn't be pursuing art to be "productive" or to make money, they'd be doing it because it makes them happy. In other words, people would be able to focus on what they want to do instead of what they have to do. Whether that's actually practical given our current society is a whole different debate.
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  14. Steal Your Face

    Steal Your Face Anti-Federalist

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    And we all know that Hollywood fails upwards.
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  15. MikeH92467

    MikeH92467 RadioNinja

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    We do? :chris:
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  16. Steal Your Face

    Steal Your Face Anti-Federalist

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    Yes, see KurtzmanTrek, Bayformers, Star Wars sequels and Jar Jar Abrams films in general for proof.
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  17. Shirogayne

    Shirogayne Gay™ Formerly Important

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    :nono:

    That's a crime in most states. :diacanu:
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  18. Shirogayne

    Shirogayne Gay™ Formerly Important

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    Explain "successful."

    Few get into art thinking they'll make big bucks, but there's a happy medium between super rich vanity projects and living off ramen noodles in between multiple gigs.
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  19. Jenee

    Jenee Driver 8

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    Ok. Pony up. You have to pay taxes. Would you rather those taxes go to war or social programs? A or B. There is no C.
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  20. Paladin

    Paladin Overjoyed Man of Liberty

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    My taxes go to lots of things, some I agree with, some I don't.
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  21. Paladin

    Paladin Overjoyed Man of Liberty

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    Star Trek is fiction, and a poor basis for modern economic and social policy.
    They can do that without having their livelihoods subsidized.
    Sure. Here's the bill, you head off to the office, now, to pay for it. I'm sure that makes you happy.
    If people are paid to pursue what makes them happy, a lot of productive work isn't going to get done, and the people doing the productive work will foot the bill.
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  22. Paladin

    Paladin Overjoyed Man of Liberty

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    Producing something with widespread critical appeal. Or something popular. Or something commercially valuable. Something society (as a whole or in significant part) considers worthwhile, notable, and valuable.

    Painting a Bob Ross-style lake scene to hang on your mom's wall doesn't count.
    If you're not able to or going to make a living off it, why should others finance your pursuit of it?
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  23. Bailey

    Bailey It's always Christmas Eve Super Moderator

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    Only if productive work isn't well incentivised.
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  24. Lanzman

    Lanzman Vast, Cool and Unsympathetic Formerly Important

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    The Star Trek economy, at least as I define it, means a post-scarcity society where basic needs and even most luxuries can be provided for essentially zero cost due to automation, nanotech, and other advanced technologies. There's no need for Johnny Joe Jimmy Bob to be screwing caps on tubes of toothpaste for a living when KILL ALL HUMANS is doing it much faster, more accurately, and without demanding union benefits. No-one has to work for a living any more and people could pursue their interests as they please. Sure, for most of humanity that means sitting in your VR sim having sex with perfect people, but there would be a residue of folks doing "productive" things like art, running boutique businesses. various hand crafts, and like that.
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  25. matthunter

    matthunter Ice Bear

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    One might go one step further then and ask why those in critical jobs that don't pay a living wage should be expected to work?

    If you need their services, pay them what they need to live.

    But of course you think pay should be commensurate to the skill needed, not the service provided.
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  26. Lanzman

    Lanzman Vast, Cool and Unsympathetic Formerly Important

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    What does that even mean? You have to have the necessary skill in order to provide the required service, so the two things are the same thing from a value perspective.

    Or in other words . . .

    welder.jpg
  27. Spaceturkey

    Spaceturkey i can see my house

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    seems to me van Gogh sold a total of one painting during his life time...
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  28. Paladin

    Paladin Overjoyed Man of Liberty

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    Productive work is dis-incentivized if one can choose to get paid to do something non-productive that makes one happy.

    "I don't want to mop floors! Can I be paid to stay at home and play video games instead?"

    Absurd.
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  29. Paladin

    Paladin Overjoyed Man of Liberty

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    Out of 10,000 hypothetical subsidized artists, how many will be another Van Gogh? Even if there were one in that group (highly doubtful), subsidizing the other 9,999 would hardly be a cost effective way of producing him/her.
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  30. Paladin

    Paladin Overjoyed Man of Liberty

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    Not even remotely close to reality. And if it can exist, it won't if we claim the rewards of it before we actually build it.

    I'm reminded of the quote from John Adams:
    A worthwhile dream, but it could never work if all the people in Adams' generation had taken up tapestries and porcelaine rather than confront the necessary labors of their own time.

    You don't get the reward before you do the work. If you did, the work would likely never get done.
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