Republicans going full anti-democratic. Want to get rid of one man one vote.

Discussion in 'The Red Room' started by Ancalagon, Jun 20, 2022.

  1. Spaceturkey

    Spaceturkey i can see my house

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2004
    Messages:
    30,376
    Ratings:
    +33,619
    just that some people's vote should count more than others it seems.
  2. Uncle Albert

    Uncle Albert Part beard. Part machine.

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2004
    Messages:
    60,502
    Location:
    'twixt my nethers
    Ratings:
    +27,501
    I think there isn't much point in participating in a system where you are all but guaranteed to be drowned out by superior numbers every time.
    • Facepalm Facepalm x 1
  3. Fisherman's Worf

    Fisherman's Worf I am the Seaman, I am the Walrus, Qu-Qu-Qapla'!

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2004
    Messages:
    30,562
    Ratings:
    +42,878
    ...which is what is happening when rural voters' votes and representation in government is disproportionately higher than those in cities.
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Winner Winner x 1
  4. MikeH92467

    MikeH92467 RadioNinja

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2004
    Messages:
    13,271
    Location:
    Boise, Idaho
    Ratings:
    +23,118
    Or, if the will of the majority is dismissed because “we’re a republic, not a democracy”. It’s one thing to have a drag on change, but reversing decades of policy that most people were satisfied with on the grounds that “we are elected to do what we think, or what the Bible tells us(even if it really doesn’t)” strikes me as arrogant and (ironically) elitist.
    • Winner Winner x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. 14thDoctor

    14thDoctor Oi

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2007
    Messages:
    30,961
    Ratings:
    +47,666
    If the thinking and desires of people in rural areas is truly correct and beneficial for society as a whole, why can't they just convince superior numbers of urban voters to support the same things?

    Regardless, every single individual that casts a single vote is "drowned out by superior numbers every time." That's how it works. :clyde:
    • Agree Agree x 4
  6. Uncle Albert

    Uncle Albert Part beard. Part machine.

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2004
    Messages:
    60,502
    Location:
    'twixt my nethers
    Ratings:
    +27,501
    So what's your pitch for keeping areas that will never be heard in your club?
  7. Jenee

    Jenee Driver 8

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2008
    Messages:
    25,345
    Location:
    On the train
    Ratings:
    +19,338
    So, you think laws should be made to be more accommodating depending on the best course of action locally?
  8. Uncle Albert

    Uncle Albert Part beard. Part machine.

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2004
    Messages:
    60,502
    Location:
    'twixt my nethers
    Ratings:
    +27,501
    I think some kind of compromise is a conversation worth happening IF holding your society together is a priority.
  9. 14thDoctor

    14thDoctor Oi

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2007
    Messages:
    30,961
    Ratings:
    +47,666
    No pitch. They get to vote and to put forward their ideas and candidates just like everyone else. If the ideas and candidates are good maybe they'll catch on. That's all the pitch anyone gets in a democracy.

    Alberta has a much smaller population than Ontario or Quebec and it's entirely possible for a party to win a federal election without winning a single seat in Alberta, but since 1980 there have been two different Prime Ministers from Alberta, because those leaders put forward their ideas and candidates and convinced enough voters that their ideas were worth voting for. :async:
    • Agree Agree x 4
  10. Uncle Albert

    Uncle Albert Part beard. Part machine.

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2004
    Messages:
    60,502
    Location:
    'twixt my nethers
    Ratings:
    +27,501
    You seem to equate "popular" with "good."
  11. Ancalagon

    Ancalagon Scalawag Administrator Formerly Important

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2004
    Messages:
    51,347
    Location:
    Downtown
    Ratings:
    +57,473
    So minorities and LGBTQ folks should have two or three extra votes a piece to help keep them from being drowned out by whites and straights?

    Oh. Wait. Your preferred system just happens to do the exact opposite. You want to give disproportionately white areas more voting power and disproportionately brown and queer areas less.

    Odd.

    Surely it is totally coincidental.

    Surely.
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2022
    • Winner Winner x 4
    • popcorn popcorn x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
  12. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

    Joined:
    May 5, 2004
    Messages:
    23,266
    Ratings:
    +22,264
    This was literally the Confederates. And we are seeing the same thing now that led up to the Civil War - a corrupt Supreme Court destroying protections for Americans (they just gutted Miranda), and rural idiots that refuse to accept a President.

    Democracy means you win some, you lose some. Conservatives have given up on that completely. We either win or we break everything.

    So the answer to what recourse we have to keeping the gang together - probably the same as last time. My guess is you aren't going to like that.
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2022
    • Agree Agree x 2
  13. 14thDoctor

    14thDoctor Oi

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2007
    Messages:
    30,961
    Ratings:
    +47,666
    So is your argument here that rural voters simply know better than urban ones, despite their inability to convince urbanites of their ideas?

    That almost makes it sound like you support the establishment of some sort of rural ruling class to make decisions for everyone, since urban folks aren't smart enough to know what's good for them. :chris:
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • popcorn popcorn x 2
    • Winner Winner x 1
  14. Diacanu

    Diacanu Comicmike. Writer

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2004
    Messages:
    101,080
    Ratings:
    +81,582
    I forgot who originated the meme, but it goes "why would people who are (admittedly!) bad at math, history, science, geography, etc, etc, magically be good at politics? It's always the dummies who think they're brilliant when it comes to politics, and only politics. They think that's their specialty. Makes no fucking sense".
  15. Bailey

    Bailey It's always Christmas Eve Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2004
    Messages:
    27,090
    Location:
    Adelaide, South Australia
    Ratings:
    +39,495
    100 times this.

    When the under-representation of women or minorities or LGBTQ or neurodivergent people or younger people is brought up suddenly it's AFFIRMATIVE ACTION IS BAD WHY DO YOU WANT DISCRIMINATION.

    Yet there's never any issue for affirmative action towards representation of people based purely on where they happen to sleep.
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • popcorn popcorn x 1
  16. Jenee

    Jenee Driver 8

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2008
    Messages:
    25,345
    Location:
    On the train
    Ratings:
    +19,338
    It is. And it would require compromise for ability to obtain or buy and keep guns.
  17. MikeH92467

    MikeH92467 RadioNinja

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2004
    Messages:
    13,271
    Location:
    Boise, Idaho
    Ratings:
    +23,118
    The very root of the "The US is republic, not a democracy bullshit." The wise people who are rich and propertied will serve as the protection from mob rule. It is interesting that the one branch of government that was supposed to be directly representative of "The People" (for all the restrictions on who could vote) was the House of Representatives. The Senate, with it's members chosen by state legislatures, was supposed to be yet another buffer against "mob rule". Since the Republicans have raised the art of Gerrymandering to new heights and with Senators now being directly elected statewide, the Senate is actually MORE representative than the House of Representatives. :spock:
    • Agree Agree x 1
  18. Ancalagon

    Ancalagon Scalawag Administrator Formerly Important

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2004
    Messages:
    51,347
    Location:
    Downtown
    Ratings:
    +57,473
    I’d amend that to say that Senators are more representative (politically - still very old white and male) of their state as a whole but that the Senate itself is not representative of the country due to every state gets two Senators bit.
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2022
    • Agree Agree x 3
  19. Bailey

    Bailey It's always Christmas Eve Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2004
    Messages:
    27,090
    Location:
    Adelaide, South Australia
    Ratings:
    +39,495
    You desperately need multiple senate representatives per state. We have similar issues where each state gets the same number regardless of population, but each state having 12 representatives (6 typically voted for each election) means that there is better representation of different interests.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  20. MikeH92467

    MikeH92467 RadioNinja

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2004
    Messages:
    13,271
    Location:
    Boise, Idaho
    Ratings:
    +23,118
    Are they elected from separate individuals/ridings? :unsure:
  21. Bailey

    Bailey It's always Christmas Eve Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2004
    Messages:
    27,090
    Location:
    Adelaide, South Australia
    Ratings:
    +39,495
    Works with our preferential voting. The number of votes required to be elected to the senate is:
    (total votes / (number of seats to be filled + 1)) + 1

    So in a standard election of 6 senators, a candidate needs to get 1/7th + 1 of the vote.

    Preferential voting then handles situations where someone gets over a quota, or there aren't a full slate of winners on the first count.
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Thank You! Thank You! x 1
  22. Order2Chaos

    Order2Chaos Ultimate... Immortal Administrator

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2004
    Messages:
    25,186
    Location:
    here there be dragons
    Ratings:
    +21,380
    Your counting system sucks though, since it's order-dependent.
  23. tafkats

    tafkats scream not working because space make deaf Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2004
    Messages:
    24,904
    Location:
    Sunnydale
    Ratings:
    +50,917
    Or as it's often called, democracy.

    You guys aren't even trying to mask your contempt for it anymore, are you?
    • Agree Agree x 5
    • Winner Winner x 2
  24. tafkats

    tafkats scream not working because space make deaf Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2004
    Messages:
    24,904
    Location:
    Sunnydale
    Ratings:
    +50,917
    I proposed a system to safeguard the interests of minority groups, using the exact same principles advocated by fans of the Electoral College, here:

    http://wordforge.net/index.php?thre...atic-party-thread.122091/page-11#post-3376598

    We have data down to the census block on how people self-identify. The five largest racial/ethnic groups in the U.S. appear to be:
    • White
    • Black
    • Non-white Hispanic
    • Asian or Pacific Islander
    • Native American
    So, I propose the following. In keeping with the principle @Lanzman advocates, whereby regions with smaller populations should have their influence artificially magnified in the upper legislative chamber, we group all majority-white census blocks into one Senate "district," all majority-Black census blocks into another, and so on.

    Every group gets 20 senators.

    All 20 can be elected as a bloc, or we can further subdivide each of these groups into 10 subgroups by geography, on the assumption that majority-Black census blocks in rural Alabama may have different concerns than majority-Black census blocks in Boston, majority-white census blocks in Nebraska may have different concerns than majority-white census blocks in suburban northern Virginia, and so on.

    This would be fair, sensible, and democratic, right?

    Strangely, the people who love the Electoral College and and are whining about how unfair democracy is ... didn't seem to like it very much.
    • popcorn popcorn x 2
    • Winner Winner x 1
  25. Tuckerfan

    Tuckerfan BMF

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2007
    Messages:
    76,636
    Location:
    Can't tell you, 'cause I'm undercover!
    Ratings:
    +154,192
    I heard a really interesting idea that makes a lot of sense to me. You create a third house of Congress (call it the House of Citizens).

    It would sort of be a hybrid of the current House and the Senate. Bills involving Constitutional Amendments would have to originate there, and no bill could be sent to the President for signature unless is passed in that house and one of the other houses of Congress. The house would have a total of 538 seats (or whatever the total for the combined number of seats in the House and Senate were), the members would be selected by random from the districts they were supposed to represent, and have to be over the age of 18 and could only serve one four year term.
    • popcorn popcorn x 1
  26. Fisherman's Worf

    Fisherman's Worf I am the Seaman, I am the Walrus, Qu-Qu-Qapla'!

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2004
    Messages:
    30,562
    Ratings:
    +42,878
    @Uncle Albert: "That Pol Pot had some good ideas..."
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • popcorn popcorn x 2
    • Thank You! Thank You! x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  27. Spaceturkey

    Spaceturkey i can see my house

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2004
    Messages:
    30,376
    Ratings:
    +33,619
    If I'm not guaranteed a win, I'm not gonna play as the whole game is unfair to me!!!

    how manly of you.
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Winner Winner x 2
  28. Uncle Albert

    Uncle Albert Part beard. Part machine.

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2004
    Messages:
    60,502
    Location:
    'twixt my nethers
    Ratings:
    +27,501
    I have always been wary of pure democracy. People will just vote away the rights of people they dislike, and award themselves more free stuff to be funded by "someone else."
  29. Uncle Albert

    Uncle Albert Part beard. Part machine.

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2004
    Messages:
    60,502
    Location:
    'twixt my nethers
    Ratings:
    +27,501
    Never said any of that.

    You're just incapable of honesty, aren't you? Go fuck yourself.
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2022
  30. Spaceturkey

    Spaceturkey i can see my house

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2004
    Messages:
    30,376
    Ratings:
    +33,619
    you literally say it in the quoted parts.

    you disagree with equal value votes

    you expressed futility in participating if the odds aren't clearly in your favour.


    Face it Al, you're a fraud who lives his life in sandbox mode.
    • Agree Agree x 5
    • Winner Winner x 1