"The 1980's are calling to ask for their foreign policy back."

Discussion in 'The Red Room' started by Steal Your Face, Jan 8, 2022.

  1. Order2Chaos

    Order2Chaos Ultimate... Immortal Administrator

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    That's great for the crews, really, but if it's still only going to take 30 Javelin-equivalents or drones to take out 30 Abrams tanks, how much use are they going to be able to get out of each one? I thought this whole war was demonstrating that the tank was fast becoming obsolete in modern warfare.
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  2. Tuckerfan

    Tuckerfan BMF

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    Stop paying attention to Musk’s military analysis.
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  3. Order2Chaos

    Order2Chaos Ultimate... Immortal Administrator

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    I wasn't aware he was doing military analysis. What I am paying attention to is the number of Russian tanks destroyed by Javelins and Byraktars.
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  4. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    A lot of that is due to Western intelligence capabilities. Western weapons with western tracking systems supplemented by western sigint and satellites.

    Currently the Russians are using the Kornet anti-tank missile, which in theory is even better than the Javelin or LAWs. Longer range, tandem warhead designed to defeat reactive armor. It's been used with some success around the world, though not nearly as well as the Ukrainians have defeated Russian armor.

    It's also not man protable, it requires a firing stand, and it strikes straight on, not top down like Western missiles.

    They haven't had much impact on Ukrainian armor to this point. Why? Mostly lack of training and doctrine. Russian troops have also been very reluctant to act as the normal screening force for armor. But it's also questionable how many of them actually exist due to the unbelievable amount of corruption and looting in the Russian military. They sent 1000 to Syria. It was assumed that meant the Russians had copious amounts in reserve. That might be false.

    In an army that currently seems to have difficulty getting the basics like helmets, uniforms, guns and ammunition to it's troops, we don't know what their actually ability to project with this weapon is.

    My guess is the longer the Russians fight the better they will get.

    But seeing that other gear the West takes for granted like military grade GPS appears to be non-existent, no doubt sold to fund Oligarchs live styles, and sanctions are blocking most high tech weapons so that Russia is resorting to purchasing from North Korea and Iran, it may be too little too late.

    Because you also need operative intel to deploy the weapons, and that is yet another capability that the Russians are woefully underperforming on.
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  5. Ancalagon

    Ancalagon Scalawag Administrator Formerly Important

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    This. The Russian MTOE (Military Table of Organization and Equipment - pronounced em-tow) for their main unit of maneuver the Battalion Tactical Group (BTG) is light on infantry. The idea was that the Russians would provide the heavy equipment and local forces the infantry. And that was on paper in reality most units were only partially manned and again, infantry got the short shrift.

    On a small scale that can work. It did in Ukraine 2014/15, Syria, etc. But not this sized. So early on you had BTGs without infantry. Combined with shitty command and control, intel, comms and everything else they bungled and you had a shitton of tanks super vulnerable to the Western and Ukrainian man portable anti-tank systems the Ukrainians had.

    My understanding is that since the early failed blitzkrieg the Russians are losing significantly less armor to said systems.
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2023
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  6. Tuckerfan

    Tuckerfan BMF

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    Yes. He recently tweeted that the war was proving tanks to be worthless. I’m sure I posted that in either this or the him buying Twitter thread. He very quickly got his ass handed to him.
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  7. Ancalagon

    Ancalagon Scalawag Administrator Formerly Important

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    F1D92078-2C63-4AFF-B0FC-26963CA8D2C8.jpeg



    A0F386C0-ACC3-42D9-8D13-57D154351B65.jpeg
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  8. shootER

    shootER Insubordinate...and churlish Administrator

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    Thus far the Ukrainians don't seem to be losing that many tanks to drones. One way four-man Western tanks are superior to 3-man Russian tanks is that when the loader in a Western tank isn't serving the gun, his role is air guard, scanning the skies for aircraft. With only the tank commander having an overhead view at any given time (assuming he isn't buttoned up) Russian tanks are more vulnerable to air attack.
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  9. Tuckerfan

    Tuckerfan BMF

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    Also, Russian countermeasures against air seems to have consisted of cope cages made of chain link fence.
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  10. shootER

    shootER Insubordinate...and churlish Administrator

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    Updated to add that the lack of apparent drone kills of Ukrainian tanks is probably because they're better trained than their counterparts. Most of the KO'd Russian tanks I've seen don't look like their crews were even trying to find concealment much less cover. Ukrainian troops have been getting US training for several years and our doctrine is to always seek out concealment whenever possible, not sit out in the open like the Russians seem to be doing.
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  11. Order2Chaos

    Order2Chaos Ultimate... Immortal Administrator

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    I’ve been assuming the apparent lack of kills of Ukrainian tanks was a combination of battlefield info control and propaganda, as well as superior training. But if they weren’t being destroyed, would Ukraine so urgently need better ones? And if they aren’t, why all the worry about Iranian drones?
  12. shootER

    shootER Insubordinate...and churlish Administrator

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    Most of the Iranian drone attacks I've read about have been focused on terrorizing civilians.

    Better tanks would give Ukraine a qualitative advantage. Right now they're using the same kinds that Russia is using, with the same limitations.

    If you and I were going to race cars wouldn't you want something like a Camaro or Mustang or would you choose a Corolla?
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  13. shootER

    shootER Insubordinate...and churlish Administrator

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    Speaking of the superior ergonomics and comfort of Western tanks, I learned this evening that the Leopard II's driver seat was apparently designed by Recaro. :lol:
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  14. Bickendan

    Bickendan Custom Title Administrator Faceless Mook Writer

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    Forget the Corolla, I want to see a race with a Pinto, a Nova, a Yugo, a WV bus, and a Hindustan Ambassador. My money's on the Yugo :ramen:
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  15. Ancalagon

    Ancalagon Scalawag Administrator Formerly Important

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    No Trabbi?
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  16. Bickendan

    Bickendan Custom Title Administrator Faceless Mook Writer

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    Not familiar with it, so sounds worthy for the lineup?
  17. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    A couple of interesting points. Iyzium was the central staging hub for Russia, SE of Kharkiv. When Ukrainians announced they were going to attack Kherson, the Russians stripped that area of troops. When the Ukrainians realized that, they took Iyzium, and captured more Russian equipment and supplies than the West had supplied in the first 7 months of the war. More than they started the war with themselves. Kherson fell then, because of lack of supply. That's one of the greatest misdirects in history - and no doubt Western intel helped them do it.

    When Kherson fell, the sole fresh waterway to the Crimea peninsula fell into Ukrainian hands. Next year's crop in Crimea is going to be 4-5 times smaller than this year's.

    The only bridge to Crimea from Russia proper has been severed and they've been unable to rebuild it as of this time.

    And most of the Javelin and Laws haven't been expended on Russian armor or IFVs. They've been expended on their transport. Over the 3200 military logistics trucks the Russians started with, they are estimated to be down to 800.

    And now there is a single road to Crimea that the new artillery systems should be in range of in the near future.

    With all the high tech weaponry flying around, we are still basically in siege tactics. Ukraine is going to starve Crimea. This is in response to Russia's change in tactics to attack civilian populations and try to drive out ethnic Ukranians to the West, will deporting their children to Russia to indoctrinate and raise as Russians, to try to stem the awful population demographics.

    This is holocaust level stuff, which is no surprise, because that's how war is fought in this part of the world.
  18. matthunter

    matthunter Ice Bear

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    Yeah, the big thing here is that 40 mile long convoy that everyone freaked out about in the first days of the invasion wasn't just tanks, but support vehicles. And it largely got wasted, either directly by Ukrainian fire, or indirectly due to poor decisions and running out of supplies.
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  19. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    Almost all the later - they didn't have enough fuel to get there. After sitting there for 3 days they ran out of food. That's when NATO went, well, shit. The Russians have lost the institutional knowledge on how to fight a real war. Which is bad, because they certainly plan on expanding West until they hit a NATO country. And then they will get annihilated. Which will leave them no choice but to use nukes, as the leadership has almost no chance of surviving if they retreat.

    Which is why Europe suddenly went shoulder to shoulder with Biden. Because they realized they had to defeat Russia in Ukraine - without sending a single NATO troop. That's why Zelensky is getting pretty much anything he proves they can use effectively.
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  20. 14thDoctor

    14thDoctor Oi

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    This is what the people whining about the cost of supporting Ukraine refuse to understand, how much cheaper this is in both money and blood than waiting and fighting Russia directly.

    One doesn't even have to like Ukraine or Zelensky to realize that it's better to contain the conflict there than to let it spill out across Europe.
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  21. Diacanu

    Diacanu Comicmike. Writer

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    The politicians whining about it understand just fine. They're Putin puppets.
    The slack-jawed dupes who vote for them, however...
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  22. Ten Lubak

    Ten Lubak Salty Dog

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    Canada just gave Ukraine four Leopard 2 tanks which made me think "wow, we have tanks?!"
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  23. shootER

    shootER Insubordinate...and churlish Administrator

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    Not any more. :ramen:
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  24. Bickendan

    Bickendan Custom Title Administrator Faceless Mook Writer

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    You'll be fine as long as you don't donate a rowboat... that'd be your entire navy :ramen:
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  25. Order2Chaos

    Order2Chaos Ultimate... Immortal Administrator

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    Wait, what? I missed that, apparently. I thought half of it had been reopened.
  26. shootER

    shootER Insubordinate...and churlish Administrator

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  27. matthunter

    matthunter Ice Bear

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    It can't cope with heavy vehicles, which one assumes prohibits a lot of military operations.
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  28. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    Yeah, I should have been more specific - it can't carry heavy traffic that they need for logistics. The Russians ordered the work to be finished by July. In theory they will have temporary replacements for the severed lanes by February.

    but it's still a chokepoint, will still be vulnerable to attack, and the Ukrainians are within striking range of the road leading to it, and the Russians are done to normal vans for logistics because their truck force has been reduced by 75%.

    My guess is they will interdict the road but leave the bridge standing - they want the Russians to flee. If they don't, we could see WWII level Eastern front siege casualties.
  29. Spaceturkey

    Spaceturkey i can see my house

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    heh
    looking it up and yeah, that's 10% of our combat (vs training) tank inventory. we've probably got enough personnel carriers to get the entirety of the army someplace in one trip...
    The CF has really dwindled to little more than logistical support.
  30. matthunter

    matthunter Ice Bear

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    The Daily Express is not exactly the most rigorous newspaper when it comes to journalism, so can anyone confirm this? If so, it really does stink of desperation from Russia:

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1727019/Vladimir-Putin-Ukraine-war-Russia-tanks-T-34-Laos

    WW2 era tanks against modern armour? Fuck me. But not as hard as whoever is driving those is fucked... I'm not a sub.
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