Real [s]Candlelight Vigil[/s] Memorial Thread for Muad Dib

Discussion in 'Wordforge Memorials' started by Black Dove, Sep 8, 2014.

  1. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    Of course not.

    But I'd happily punch in the face any parent that told their kid they don't need to go to a doctor because it was up to God whether they live or die.

    I've been on the receiving end of 'you have X months to live if this treatment doesn't work, and it only has a 30% chance of working.'

    There were lots of people rooting for me, just like people are rooting for Muad.

    But the ones who prayed and did nothing only did nothing. The ones that didn't pray but got up off their ass and helped me were the ones who I treasure now.
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  2. The Flashlight

    The Flashlight Contributes nothing worthwhile Cunt Git

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    Strawman. Nobody's talking about faith healing or refusing to see doctors.

    Yet you're still alive. To what do you attribute that? It will be interesting to see how hard you work to list off as many things as possible that absolutely cannot involve God.

    I see. So this really isn't about atheism, it's about a grudge you're holding against certain people who didn't give you the type of assistance you felt you were owed. I assume we're talking about money? So how much money does it take to win your devotion? If I give you $50 will you treasure me? :rolleyes:
  3. Forbin

    Forbin Do you feel fluffy, punk?

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    Offhand, I'd say the treatment.
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  4. TheLonelySquire

    TheLonelySquire Fresh Meat

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    Best wishes to you for a winning battle, Maud. You seem to have a great perspective. Godspeed.
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  5. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    Wait for it.... You know its coming...

    And there it is!

    Oh, and to scream 'strawman' after initiating this phase of the conversation by talking about how I clearly enjoy torturing children is yet another of your truly hypocritical behaviors.

    Wasn't there something about bearing false witness.... LOL.

    You assume. Of course you do - because this is yet another topic you pontificate on without knowing anything.

    It wasn't about money. I had a newborn - my son was born the same time I went into the hospital. Some good people helped my wife. Some sat on their ass and kept saying 'we'll pray for you.'

    The ones who quietly go about leading good lives in the name of their religion almost never bring up the subject of money. They are the first ones to get up and help.

    Funny how often the ones who loudly proclaim their devotion to relgion are the ones whose minds go to money first.

    But then, ignorance often equates with being poor.
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  6. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    Come to think of it - wasn't Flashlight the guy who screamed that anybody who helped Nova after the house fire was just a fool who was being conned?

    That was one of the better moment of Wordforge IMO. That was a truly good thing.

    You are one seriously pathetic Christian Flashlight.
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  7. Shirogayne

    Shirogayne Gay™ Formerly Important

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    There are miracles that can't be explained, like the fifteen year old that was diagnosed with a brain tumor some years ago in my hometown and given a year to live. His parents had picked the casket out and everything when when show up for an MRI to find the tumor had just...vanished. Thrre more follow ups and he had a normal brain like nothing was there. And that's great, truly an act of God IMO.

    But then you have my family, where my aunt was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer (which no one except Steve Jobs will live to see another birthday once diagnosed, for all practical purposes) who did nothing but pray. No arrangements for where her younger childrewn would end up, no planning for the inevitable funeral...the two youngest kids were with their father and had no idea her illness was that serious and my mom hade to play mediator because the rest of the family wanted to throw barbs at the guy. Hell, the only hospice service was her son's idiot girlfriend that knew fuck all about nursing.

    I can't speak for @Demiurge, but I sense he has more of a problem with the former than the latter; of people using God as an excuse not to be of any use to a sick or dying person here on this Earth. It's the reason I abhorr the pro-lifers that slut shame pregnant women that have abortion while voting to remove programs that feed those babies they say deserve the right to live.
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  8. Forbin

    Forbin Do you feel fluffy, punk?

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    Aliens.
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  9. Liet

    Liet Dr. of Horribleness, Ph.D.

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    That's not unexplained at all. Your body fights off tumors and cancer all the time. The more advanced the case, the less likely it will happen, and mostly your body fights off those cases that aren't advanced enough to diagnose, but even diagnosed cases often spontaneously regress. If you do a controlled study screening women for breast cancer and not screening the control group at the beginning of the study, then the long term incidence of diagnosis of cancer is significantly higher in the initially screened group than in the control group. Cancer isn't a magic beam of green light that kills you without a saving throw; it's just another disease, albeit one we haven't learned to treat as well as pneumonia.

    That said, stage four lung cancer is bad news.
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2014
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  10. enlisted person

    enlisted person Black Swan

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    I have been to his home. It's been a few years since then. I am sorry to hear about this. He is the closest WF person to me. Poor fellow.
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  11. Muad Dib

    Muad Dib Probably a Dual Deceased Member

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    "Faith without works is dead"

    Cancer cells are present in all of us all the time. For whatever reason, our immune system may fail to keep them in check and you get cancer. Then again, your immune system may kick into high gear and you go into remission.

    I plan to be in the latter category.
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  12. Zor Prime

    Zor Prime .

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    Hope everything works out for you, Muad Dib.
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  13. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    @Anna - I agree there's lots of things that happen that we don't understand. But that doesn't mean God did it - though unlike Diacanu for example I allow for the fact that its possible that a supernatural entity exists and does shit for mysterious reasons. I find it extremely unlikely - but there's all sorts of things that happens that I would consider extremely unlikely.

    That being said, I know that that's the exception, not the rule. I do think faith can do some amazing stuff - but I posit that as the brain's ability to influence the body. There is definitely some scientific evidence for that, even the placebo effect. And therefore it has to do with YOUR faith, not someone else's.

    You are correct, I did have close family members that thought the appropriate thing to do was pray really really hard. But wouldn't help even when directly asked. Even basic stuff like visiting the hospital, either when I or my son was very, very sick. You know the type - the people in the family that don't have any jobs or real responsibilities, always say they will be there for you if you need them, then come up with a million excuses.

    Ultimately what saved me was my wife who is the strongest and best person I know, and the fact I did have a son that I promised myself I would see graduate from high school. You need people to help - especially when the chemo and illness starts impacting your ability to make good judgements, which can happen. I was so sick I couldn't watch a tv show at points. But chosing that one thing you will fight for and reason to make it to the next day is something you can use if you don't have faith.

    Muad might have an easier time of it than I in that respect - clearly he believes. There's some extraordinary benefits for that - both in making it through this, and if is evident you won't, accepting it with peace. Religious people do live longer and are happier than non-religious. A gross generalization obviously, but one that is backed up with research.

    But just waving your hand and saying 'its god's will' also excuses a lot of stupidity and horribleness. It's up to us to make this life the best we can. I credit people such as Hesy-Ra, Peseshet, Hippocrates, Herophilus, and Galen more than I do Zeus, Isis, or Jehovah.
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  14. Diacanu

    Diacanu Comicmike. Writer

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    You say that like it's a good thing.
    :shrug:
  15. tafkats

    tafkats scream not working because space make deaf Moderator

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    You could argue that it's God who gives people cancer, and human doctors and researchers who help people beat it in spite of him, not because of him.

    But the important thing is that it get beaten.
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  16. Asyncritus

    Asyncritus Expert on everything

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    And I, as a very committed Christian, agree with you 100%. Sure, I fully believe in a God who can do miracles. But it seems to me that miracles, by definition, must be extremely exceptional.

    Absolutely. Another reason for which I am extremely skeptical of "faith healing" claims that are attributed to God.

    This is where I would have to disagree with you to a slight extent: The positive input of others who care can have a great amount of influence on your own state of mind, and therefore on what your brain is able to do in fighting off disease and other problems. It is well known, for example, that the placebo effect is stronger when the doctor prescribing the placebo actually thinks he is prescribing a powerful new medicine than when he knows he is prescribing a placebo.

    It would appear that, in your case, you let yourself be convinced that what others believed didn't have any effect, and thus deprived yourself of this effect. Fortunately, you pulled through anyway. But in many cases, it really does make a difference, without there having to be any supernatural effect involved at any point.
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  17. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    I think you are overthinking this. :D

    The placebo effect doesn't work if the patient is aware that it is a placebo. That's all.

    In that case, if everyone else is telling you that the placebo will work, it doesn't mean anything.

    Indeed, there's a nocebo effect as well - if patients think something is gonig to hurt them it has a negative effect, even if the physician tells them otherwise.

    "I'll pray for you" doens't piss me off.

    But it is pretty meaningless when you then ask that person for help, have a close familial bond where that is what is expected, and that person refuses to do anything but pray.

    That's just watching someone die.

    And of course that goes back to the ethics of the placebo effect. Even if in some cases it works, its still a lie.
  18. Chardman

    Chardman An image macro is worth 1000 words. Deceased Member

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    Wrong!
    Scientific American
  19. Asyncritus

    Asyncritus Expert on everything

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    It's not that simple.

    If a person is ill and their dog hovers around them, apparently "caring" about the situation, that can be an encouragement to the person and therefore an aid in recovery. And yet any sane person knows that a dog "caring" not only doesn't actually do anything, it is mere anthropomorphism.

    If people of a religious persuasion I don't share want to pray for me when I am in difficult straits, my disbelief in their particular beliefs does not have to equal disbelief in their caring about me. Sure, burning a candle for me, or offering something to Mother Earth, might be empty ritual, and I know it, but that ultimately has little to do with the reality of whether or not they care. If they care, it is fully to be expected that caring will take a form that is conformed to their own beliefs. So what? It doesn't mean they don't care. And the fact that they care means something.

    To be sure, I fully agree that if they don't care, if "I'll pray for you" is just an excuse not to actually do anything, then there is no use in that, especially if I realize they don't really care. That, by the way, is what the Bible teaches as well: "What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, 'Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,' but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead" (James 2:14-17).

    But that does not at all mean that the caring attitude of others has no effect on your mental and emotional well-being. I think you are too quick to dismiss everyone who doesn't share your own belief system. Just because their belief system is wrong, and you know (or believe) it to be wrong, doesn't mean that none of them actually care. And if some of them do, even among those who for various reasons are not able to do anything concrete, that can help in your recovery, even if you don't believe in the same things as they do.
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  20. Muad Dib

    Muad Dib Probably a Dual Deceased Member

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    I don't think prayer is meaningless at all. Prayer is very powerful medicine. I think all prayers are answered, but sometimes the answer is no.

    I think we have unrealistic expectations of miracles. We expect lightning bolts and thunder, but more often than not, miracles are very subtle. A miracle may be that chemo or medicine or that prayer that heals whatever illness, or sends cancer into remission.

    To me, it's a win-win situation. If I live, I win. If I die, I go to a better place to be reunited with some relatives I haven't seen in a long time, some I've never met, and I still win.
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  21. steve2^4

    steve2^4 Aged Meat

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    My wife's an oncology nurse. We all know someone who has had cancer. For those that haven't your posts are helping them understand, and may help them someday when they need it. Thanks for your understanding, Muad. And remember: fear is the mind killer. Or is it, no matter where you go, there you are?
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  22. Diacanu

    Diacanu Comicmike. Writer

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    Oh, it does me.
    I'm going to bite the next person who does it in my presence.
    In that bit between the thumb and forefinger.
    Just crunch right down like they're a sandwich.
    :yes:
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  23. Liet

    Liet Dr. of Horribleness, Ph.D.

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    "I'll pray for you" sounds an awful lot like "bless your heart" when deliberately said to someone who openly acknowledges that prayer is hooey. As said to someone who believes in prayer it sounds less like the obnoxious asshattery of "bless your heart' and more like "I sincerely hope for the best for you."
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  24. Asyncritus

    Asyncritus Expert on everything

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    I'm sad you feel this way.

    I'll pray for you. :)










    ;)
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  25. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    Dogs have empathy - often far more so than humans. Yes, dogs do indeed care. The amount of anecdotal evidence showing dogs taking care of the sick or fallen is overwhelming. If you don't get that, than I have to question your ability to percieve anything without seeing it throuh the filter of your dogma.

    You are clearly missing the point.

    Say I'm starving to death.

    Two people have extra food. One says "I'll pray for you so you don't starve."

    The other one gives you food.

    Its pretty obvious which one helped, and which one didn't.

    Ding ding ding.

    There are clearly situations where people use religious beliefs to cover up lack of moral deeds. I thought I was pretty explicit that this was one of those times.

    Their belief system has nothing to do whether or not they care. Athiests, mormons, satanists, taoists, whatever. The actions they take matters there. What they do shows that.

    Caring means spending time - picking up the phone to see how you are, coming over, even if they can't help in other concrete ways.

    Yes, that can certainly have beneficial advantages.

    But just praying and doing absolutely nothing else?

    Sorry - that's just an excuse. And as you pointed out, shows the person doesn't understand their responsbilities under the bible.

    And of course I don't expect random strangers to 'help' - close family friends came out of the wood work to offer whatever they could do, and the answer to that was generally thanks, I'll keep that in mind. I did ask one guy to smuggle me in a sandwhich when a doctor kept me from eating for a week because of apathy - he literrally was to busy to sign off on the order that I could eat. Yeay, medical system.

    But close family members? Yes, if you told me you loved me and would do anything for me and were praying for me yet refused to do anything at all when my entire family was in crisis - in particular a case during this time period that my 9 month old was hospitalized and in trouble, my wife had been up for 96 hours taking care of her sick husband and child, was extremely ill herself and of course I could barely stand during that ime period. And you prayed a lot but lived within 10 miles, and in this particular case was already driving by the hospital on an errand but wouldn't stop to help out. Yeah, fuck you very much.

    I think you don't really understand what I'm talking about Async. Prayer means nothing absent deeds.
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2014
  26. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    OK, poor wording on my part. If there is no expectation that the placebo will provide beneficial results would have been better. Your article links to an abstract, and in that abstract the people were specifically told that the placebo would help them. So it worked:

    Patients were randomized to either open-label placebo pills presented as “placebo pills made of an inert substance, like sugar pills, that have been shown in clinical studies to produce significant improvement in IBS symptoms through mind-body self-healing processes” or no-treatment controls with the same quality of interaction with providers.
    http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0015591

    There was another similar one in 2014:
    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life...rscores-its-remarkable-power/article16281897/

    Again, telling the patient that the medicine will help, even when they know it is a placebo, appears to be the mechanism. Its still the patients mind that does the trick.

    However, I have to wonder if the placebo effect is primarily simply through the person thinking they feel better - again, these are almost always survey results. Biasing them towards answering the results in the future survey on checking on efficacy would explain a lot as well.

    Any research on actual physiological changes due to placebo effect would be most appreciated -that's an interesting concept to me.
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  27. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    No, not that I noticed. :D I just don't say 'It is impossible.'

    Of course, I'd be absolutely delighted to run into Odin or Athena some day. I picture Odin as the ultimate 'get of my lawn' old guy. :D
  28. Shirogayne

    Shirogayne Gay™ Formerly Important

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    Wow, no wonder you hate doctors like poison. :(
  29. Diacanu

    Diacanu Comicmike. Writer

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    Nothing is impossible.
    Some things are just really fucking improbable, and not worth considering.
    Maybe your foods get up and dance every time you shut the fridge door.
    Do you countenance the notion?
    Probably not.
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  30. Asyncritus

    Asyncritus Expert on everything

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    One thing that has become very clear is that Demi is still the bitter, angry man he became a few years ago. It would appear from this thread that his resentment towards all the people that didn't help him is part of it.

    In any case, bitter or not, he has as much of a right to his opinion as the rest of us. But it's obvious that doctors aren't the only people he hates.
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