CIA claims Russia helped rig U.S. election

Discussion in 'The Red Room' started by We Are Borg, Dec 10, 2016.

  1. We Are Borg

    We Are Borg Republican Democrat

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    Well this is getting interesting...
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  2. Dinner

    Dinner 2012 & 2014 Master Prognosticator

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    And how they "intervined" was to release email information Hillary actually wrote?

    Not much of an intervention to just show people what the arrogant cunt wrote.
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  3. gul

    gul Revolting Beer Drinker Administrator Formerly Important

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    Responding to OP:

    Yep, although it's not exactly a new story. These things were widely known in October. There is more and deeper background, now, but the song remains the same. Putin wanted his boy in the Whitehouse and put state resources behind making it happen. Best case scenario, he was afraid of Clinton or just feels warm and fuzzy for another member in the corrupt authoritarian club. The nightmare scenario is that Trump owes him something and can therefore be managed or controlled in some way. We need to be very vigilant, dangerous times are ahead.
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  4. steve2^4

    steve2^4 Aged Meat

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    Not so sure "dangerous" is the right word. Maybe just "not nice" or "unenlightened."
  5. Ebeneezer Goode

    Ebeneezer Goode Gobshite

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    As I said in @Nova's thread:

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  6. Dr. Krieg

    Dr. Krieg Stay at Home Astronaut. Administrator Overlord

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    http://observer.com/2016/08/yes-american-spies-really-think-trump-is-putins-guy/
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  7. steve2^4

    steve2^4 Aged Meat

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    How does the US cozying up to Putin help the EU?

    Well and good, but again how does this help anyone outside of Russia?

    This is true.

    Doing nothing is often the best course of action. The US doing something brought us the mess that's Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, and Iran. I give Russia partial credit for Afghanistan and Syria.
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  8. markb

    markb Dirty Bastard

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    And the conservatives are ok with this. So much for their vaunted 'patriotism' I always knew it was a crock; this just confirms it.

    Their religious beliefs are also a crock since they're down with a serial divorcee, cheater, and well known liar.

    That's alright though. By the time he's done, the average Trump supporter will be on SNAP.
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  9. Dr. Krieg

    Dr. Krieg Stay at Home Astronaut. Administrator Overlord

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    Your willingness to deal away sovereign Ukrainian territory(Crimea), and gloss over the Russian Air Forces systematic murder of civilians and destruction of hospitals in Syria is disturbing. The parallels to 1930's appeasement are equally disturbing. Unless, I've misread your post, somehow?
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  10. markb

    markb Dirty Bastard

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    The Ukrainian situation was never going to be something that we stood in the door over. And for obvious reasons.

    And I welcomed Russian involvement in Syria, as unpleasant as that sounds. They're using up their resources and spending their money, building up homegrown exasperation and unrest, they are killing a number of the people we kinda wanted killed but didn't really want to do ourselves, and the first world's finger waving that is normally waved in our direction is now waving at the Russians instead.

    Also, the governments and elements in the region that are normally inimical to us and our interest are partially swiveling their attention away from us and towards the Russians which is giving us some much needed breathing room.

    And all that it cost us was a few 'ineffectual' press conferences and some public statements.

    Machiavelli would approve.
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  11. Ebeneezer Goode

    Ebeneezer Goode Gobshite

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    Um, nothing I've stated was about helping the EU, more about how US and EU lack of leadership has allowed two dangerous situations to arise, ones where civilians are suffering.

    Dunno, you think maybe the Syrians might appreciate not being bombed? How about the refugees trying to cross the Med and are being interned in Turkey? How about the fact the US and Russia are working at cross-purposes in Syria, needlessly, and just perpetuating the misery? Seems to me it'd help a lot of people.

    That's ridiculous. Doing nothing is certainly better than doing stupid, and your examples are of when something stupid was done. Afghanistan and Iraq were the result of stupid planning, and Iraq was extra stupid as it was a needless war. Syria, well the West has something of a responsibility there.

    But the concept of doing nothing as the best course of action? I mean, yes, if the place is nice and peaceful, but when it's not? The likes of ISIS need dealing with, either directly or via proxies, doing nothing would be as stupid as, well as doing something stupid.
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  12. Ebeneezer Goode

    Ebeneezer Goode Gobshite

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    It was handed over to the Ukraine whilst they were a satellite USSR state, realistically it should've fallen back either into Russian control, or as an jointly-administered autonomous state, after the collapse of the USSR. It remaining part of the Ukraine was always going to end up causing problems, not least because the Russians fought damn hard to get a Black Sea base.

    And I'm not glossing over anything, I've stated before that the moment the Russian shill was booted out power the US and EU should've been playing nanny and negotiating some kind of settlement between the Ukraine and Russia. It may have failed, but you at least try, instead we got another war and with Russia turning the screws economically on the Ukraine. When Yanukovych stepped down, that was the missed opportunity I'm on about.

    It was fairly obvious that Russia was never going to have the area under EU or NATO control, the lack of foresight of that is pretty depressing and fairly damning as to the competency of our statesmen.

    As for Russia's crimes, yes, they've a lot to answer for, but IMO it all could've been avoided.
  13. Tuckerfan

    Tuckerfan BMF

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    Oh, Trump definitely owes the Russians (and by extension Pootie-Poot).
    Given that American banks refuse to loan money to Trump, because he's burned so many of them in the past, he's had to look elsewhere for investors, that includes places like Russia, China, and the Mid-East. It'll be interesting to see what impact Trump's call to Taiwan's leader will have on his investments. Of course, Bob Dole made a fortune from that call.
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  14. We Are Borg

    We Are Borg Republican Democrat

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    With one exception, haven't all of Trump's former and current wives been hookers from former Soviet-bloc countries? :chris:
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  15. Tuckerfan

    Tuckerfan BMF

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    :yes:
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  16. steve2^4

    steve2^4 Aged Meat

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    The Syrian civil war started after Arab Spring and King Assad dealing violently with protesters. Assad was the bad actor from the start.

    There are 3 main groups, Assad loyalists, Syrian Opposition, and ISIL terrorists. The latter two groups are all terrorists in Assad's view. (It's actually much more complicated, but I just skimmed the wiki primer).

    Assad is using chemical weapons and primitive bombs to put down the uprising. Up to 500,000 people have been killed including perhaps 150,000 combatant deaths, 30% of which are government loyalists. The rest, some 250,000 are civilians. (numbers are fuzzy.)

    Russia and Iran are supporting Assad. Russia has given lip service to working with the US but continues indiscriminate bombing of all Assad opponents.

    The US, Britain and France are providing support to the Syrian Opposition while trying to control ISIL.

    I think you are suggesting that the US join with Russia to eliminate the Syrian Opposition and ISIL in Syria. I can see why some prefer putting down the rebellion (both factions). It simplifies the algebra and leaves a harsh leader to continue to oppress the general population keeping them in line.

    I'd like to think we're the good guys (along with Britain and France) in supporting the Syrian Opposition against an oppressive despot (Assad) guilty of crimes against humanity. Based on our history in Afghanistan, Iran and Iraq I can see why this course might end badly.

    I'm willing to bet Trump will tip the scales in favor of Assad and Russia. Dark times.
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  17. Ebeneezer Goode

    Ebeneezer Goode Gobshite

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    No, maybe I wasn't clear in my original post. Assad is just a means to an end, Russia wants some measure of control in the ME and he is their current pick for Syria. Just as with Ukraine, we know this, so why didn't we do a deal - Russia gives up Assad, we give them some control and a nice shiny base on the Med. Everybody but ISIS and Assad loyalists are happy, and we can get Syria back into a stable state whilst sending ISIS packing.

    Just as the chance for doing a deal over Crimea has passed, so I suspect has the one for removing Assad.

    Again, this isn't something I'm suggesting for the here and now, but something that could - and should - have been done some time before. My complaint is both the US and EU dropped the ball with Ukraine and Syria, leading directly to the current situation in both countries and ensuring an antagonistic relationship with Russia.

    Without a doubt.
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  18. Dr. Krieg

    Dr. Krieg Stay at Home Astronaut. Administrator Overlord

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    Crimea belongs to Ukraine, no matter how much Muscovy wants to annex it. Just because Muscovy conquered it in the past, doesn't make a theirs, just ask Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. Nor is Transdnistria, Abkhazia, Nagorno Karabakh, Ichekeria, or any of the other host of places stolen or consumed by Muscovy. Muscovy already has a Euxine port, it's called Novorossiysk.
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  19. Cobalt

    Cobalt USA International

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    I have no problem with Russia's actions relating to the U.S. election.
    They released documents that might influence the election in favor of a candidate that they thought
    would be more favorable to their interests.

    They didn't fabricate documents.
    They didn't hack into county offices and manipulate election results.
    They didn't invade anybody.

    In Ukraine, the western part wants to extend their trade with western Europe.
    The eastern part trades primarily with Russia, and receives subsidies for natural gas and oil.
    In a democratic election, a candidate from the east was elected, but the capitol is in the west.
    A mob attacked the capitol, and took over the government offices.
    The United States backed the mob.

    In Vietnam, 58,000 young Americans lost their lives in a campaign to prevent a democratic election.
    An additional 7,000 and counting have died in order to implement regime change in Iraq and Afghanistan.
    The United States supplies weapons and training to rebels trying to overthrow the government in Syria.

    The U.S. has some work to do before it starts complaining about the actions of other nations.
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  20. Ebeneezer Goode

    Ebeneezer Goode Gobshite

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    :shrug: The Crimea was in possession of Ukraine-actual for around 50 years, under Russian control for almost the previous 200, and the entire area has seen itself shifting. Ukraine itself has been under the control of the Poles, Austrians, Lithuanians and even the Crimeans at one point.

    If we're going to righting ancient expansions, and half a millennia of Ruthenian infighting over who own what, we're never going to get anywhere.

    Recognising that Crimea was gifted, well, used as a bribe by Moscow to keep Kiev happy, seems to have rather more merit than playing Top Trumps over the various military campaigns of the last 1500 years, of which no group in the region can claim to have said "you know what chaps, I think we've got quite enough land, lets leave those fellas over the river well alone and all get along nicely shall we?"

    I could certainly see an argument for an independent Crimea, but ownership by Ukraine? Spurious given the history.
  21. Dr. Krieg

    Dr. Krieg Stay at Home Astronaut. Administrator Overlord

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    I respect you a great deal, but your...."impression" of what has transpired in Ukraine is utterly false. Yanukovych was elected in a very fishy election, he and his cronies dismantled their military, stole billions of dollars from the nation and disappeared political opponents. The Ukrainian people wanted a shift towards western ideals (less corruption, graft and repression), and Yanukovych was bullied by Moscow into shifting East. Yanukovych was ousted when his Berkut goon squad started murdering protesters. It wasn't some CIA op, or some other fantasy bullshit. Please tell me you don't watch Russia Today?!?
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  22. Dr. Krieg

    Dr. Krieg Stay at Home Astronaut. Administrator Overlord

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    I guess if my car gets stolen 4 or 5 times, it's not mine, anymore, right? Crimea is directly attached to Ukraine, not Russia. Are you arguing that Muscovy is entitled to everything it touches? By the way, it's Kyiv, not Kiev.
  23. Ebeneezer Goode

    Ebeneezer Goode Gobshite

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    Directly attached isn't the same as 'owned by', unless you're also claiming neighbouring nations as well? So as cars go, the original owners were an ever shifting bunch of tribes until a few of them decided they'd rather like it just for themselves, and after that it's gone through a few careless owners.

    Crimea was an Ottoman outpost, then independent, then annexed by Russia. So I'm not claiming either side has objective ownership, just that the only time some 1500 years ownership has been transferred peacefully was when Moscow handed it to Kiev(feel free to call any UK city by their Ukrainian translation) which, given prior to Russian annexation it was an independent nation, makes Ukrainian claims boil down to "No crazy Russians, don't steal back from us what you gave after stealing it from someone else!"

    But hey, with Trump in power and the EU having it's own issues, Ukraine is going to have to tackle Putin's expansionist attitudes on it's own. Crimea ended up being lost anyway, so handing it over in exchange for concessions and a deal may just have given Ukraine a massive boost, as it stands it's got a brooding Russia on it's east, and a cooling EU on it's west, and whilst I hope it works out well for the Ukraine, I doubt it will given that Putin is a bastard bearing one hell of a grudge.
  24. Asyncritus

    Asyncritus Expert on everything

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    I doubt this very much.
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  25. gul

    gul Revolting Beer Drinker Administrator Formerly Important

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    I side with you on this, but I think the argument is that seeing Crimea as part of Ukraine is not dissimilar from seeing Kuwait as part of Iraq -- not valid on any historical or cultural basis. I know a guy from Odessa who worked for me several years before retiring to Florida. He was always adamant that Crimea was Russian. He also considered quite a bit more of Ukraine to be Russian, and would also say that he himself was Russian, not Ukrainian. I don't really think there is a strongly satisfactory answer on the question. Regardless, my argument with Moscow on this regards process. They took advantage of a political crisis in a neighboring state to forge a military solution that ultimately gets nowhere in settling the question, since it only hardens the positions held by all stakeholders. Fuck Putin and his thugs, there is no way to paint their actions in a positive light, whether or not there is a legitimate Russian claim.
  26. Dr. Krieg

    Dr. Krieg Stay at Home Astronaut. Administrator Overlord

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    Actually, Crimea was a semi autonomous region while with Ukraine, with power shared by Kyiv and the Crimeans Tatars. The Tatars preferred Ukraine, mostly because KYIV DIDN'T COMMIT CRACKDOWNS AND MASS REPRESSION AGAINST THE TATARS! Ukrainians spell and pronounce UK names just as the UK does, because they're not jerks who intentionally misspell city names. Kiev is a Soviet/Russian construct, Kyiv is the proper spelling. Not that you care, apparently. We'll see if your Neville Chamberlain approach towards Muscovy bears any fruit, maybe they'll start playing nice if we give them everything they want. :shrug:
  27. Dr. Krieg

    Dr. Krieg Stay at Home Astronaut. Administrator Overlord

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    Would you like to know why he considers himself Russian? The Soviet Union initiated an artificial famine in Ukraine in the 30's, called Holomodor. At the same time, they were forcibly removing Tatars from Crimea to Siberia. With the Tatars effectively out of the way, and up to 7.5 million Ukrainians starved to death, Stalin moved ethnic Russians into those areas. This is family history to me, our family created Kyivan Rus.
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  28. Asyncritus

    Asyncritus Expert on everything

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    This is one of the most amusingly ironic spelling errors I have seen in quite a while. :)
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  29. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

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    It may be so, but I'm certainly not inclined to give much credibility to the declarations of US intelligence...
  30. Dr. Krieg

    Dr. Krieg Stay at Home Astronaut. Administrator Overlord

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    This is my punishment for Wordforging on my phone, while feeding a baby. :lol:
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