Trayvon Martin/George Zimmerman Tangent #654

Discussion in 'The Red Room' started by Jenee, Jun 7, 2021.

  1. Uncle Albert

    Uncle Albert Part beard. Part machine.

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    There is absolutely nothing to support that level of speculation.

    I seriously doubt you'd be having a casual conversation on the phone while you were hiding in the dark waiting for someone to pull a gun, either.

    Maybe albino moon lizards manipulated both of them with their telepathy rays. Support it with a shred of evidence and I'll entertain it. But argue any of it with a variation on "I like this guy but I don't like that guy" and you've already lost.
  2. oldfella1962

    oldfella1962 the only real finish line

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    It says a lot about how society is so quick to consider the fear that Zimmerman was experiencing when Martin finally confronted him and think nothing of the fear that a dead kid had as he was being stalked by a creepy ass adult with a gun. HE WAS A KID! He was being accosted by a strange adult for absolutely nothing. And he was killed for trying to protect himself. - Alphaman

    some questions:
    1) did Martin know Zimmerman had a gun? :chris: If he did then why didn't Martin sprint out of gun range at the first opportunity? "Fight or flight" is a hard-wired instinct whether we are a kid or an adult. Grown man with a gun coming at you means "flight" in this situation. Martin never mentioned a gun in his phone call to his friend ASAIK.

    2) if Zimmerman was truly "stalking" Martin for nefarious purposes would he tell the police dispatcher that was indeed trying to keep tabs on Martin? :chris: I think that would kind of tip his hand, wouldn't it? :shrug: Again, if Martin truly thought Zimmerman was a creepy old guy why didn't he just haul ass? If Martin was fit & strong enough to beat Zimmerman's ass he could certainly run much faster than him.
  3. oldfella1962

    oldfella1962 the only real finish line

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    Then why didn't he mention that during his phone conversation? :chris:If I were going to save the day playing junior crimefighter I'd shoehorn that into phone update.
  4. Raoul the Red Shirt

    Raoul the Red Shirt Professional bullseye

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    The trouble is that this doesn't indicate just one conclusion.

    The following are at least somewhat plausible and consistent with the undisputable fact of George Zimmerman having followed Martin while suspecting him of burglaries and ending up at some point with a broken nose and other injuries while Martin was apparently uninjured beyond the fatal bullet:

    1. Martin confronted Zimmerman out, attacked him, was beating the crap out of him when Zimmerman reasonably feared for his life/safety and decided he needed to shoot Martin to defend himself.
    2. Martin confronted Zimmerman out. Zimmerman attacked first but was getting the crap beaten out of him. Zimmerman reasonably feared for his life/safety and decided he needed to shoot Martin to defend himself.
    3. Zimmerman found Martin, attacked him but then got overpowered. Zimmerman reasonably feared for his life/safety and decided he needed to shoot Martin to defend himself.
    4. Zimmerman found Martin, Martin attacked Zimmerman in an one-sided. Zimmerman reasonably feared for his life/safety and shot.
    5. Variants on the above, but Zimmerman overreacted and shot when a reasonable person in his place would not have feared great bodily harm or death and Zimmerman shot anyway.
    6. Variants on the above but a reasonable person would have feared death/great bodily harm, BUT they would have found a less extreme way out of it than shooting.
    7. Variants on the above but Zimmerman never truly feared for his life. He shot wrongly (either panicking or maliciously shooting) and his purported injuries were exaggerated or faked. This news story refers to a security camera video of Zimmerman post-arrest that does not show signs of injury. Now realistically, it could just be that the bruising had not become visually obvious at that point. For my money, he does not seem to look like he just had his head pounded into the ground.

    There are lots of other possibilities, I'm sure.
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  5. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    Not legally, no. Because Florida law is very specific that if you have reasonable fear of grave bodily harm or death you have the legal right to defend yourself.

    We'll never know who threw the first punch, though circumstantial evidence points to Martin. But it doesn't matter to the jury's deliberations.

    What's the word? Oh, right - irrelevant.
  6. Raoul the Red Shirt

    Raoul the Red Shirt Professional bullseye

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    I mean, the friend/girlfriend was apparently on the phone with Martin around that time. I assume phone records confirm it; at least, I think the news story I linked to above said they did, and I would assume any decent defense attorney would be able to destroy the witness for claiming they were on the phone at the time if the phone records for Martin did not confirm that.

    Now if one wants to disbelieve Jeantel's testimony, that's fair. She clearly had issues as a witness. But it's not "absolutely nothing."
  7. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    Then my guess is you didn't see this.

    zimmerman6.jpg
  8. Man Afraid of his Shoes

    Man Afraid of his Shoes كافر

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    Wait...what? I have never heard that narrative.
  9. oldfella1962

    oldfella1962 the only real finish line

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    taking all possible violent encounters off the table I see shared blame:
    both Martin and Zimmerman were advised to stay away from each other. Martin's friend told him to stand down and the police told Zimmerman to stand down.
    Great advice all around, too bad it wasn't followed.
    IMHO trouble has a way of finding everyone sooner or later, but you don't have to give it a helping hand.
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  10. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    It's pretty close to nothing. She perjured herself under oath, admitting she lied about going to the hospital to see Trayvon's body. She was asked to read a letter she supposedly sent to Martin's mom, but couldn't read it. It was signed Diamond Eugene, not her name, and she claimed that was her nickname. Turns out her half-sister's name is Britany Diamond Eugene. So pretty obvious she perjured herself again.

    And she admitted she didn't actually know who threw the first punch, and that at one point she changed her testimony so as not to upset Trayvon's mom.

    Finally she originally claimed she was a minor, when in fact she was 18.

    I'm not sure how you get a witness for your side that's less of a nothing than that. I guess they could admit they were the killer.
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2021
  11. Torpedo Vegas

    Torpedo Vegas Fresh Meat

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    Not to get off on a tangent, but how about that Casey Anthony verdict, right?!
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  12. Fisherman's Worf

    Fisherman's Worf I am the Seaman, I am the Walrus, Qu-Qu-Qapla'!

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    :irony:
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  13. Man Afraid of his Shoes

    Man Afraid of his Shoes كافر

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    Mods...can we split the Casey Anthony tangent crap out of the George Zimmerman tangent crap?
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  14. shootER

    shootER Insubordinate...and churlish Administrator

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    096AEA94-7757-4EDF-BD4F-928418AE4220.jpeg
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  15. Raoul the Red Shirt

    Raoul the Red Shirt Professional bullseye

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    Assuming the clip from the station video is accurate, there does not seem to be any sign of blood in that video.

    So there are a few possibilities that come to mind:

    1. The video is somehow inadequate to showing the injuries that he sustained in the incident (broken nose and bloody scalp) -- it's too grainy, too far away or whatever.
    2. The photo you copied is from a different time or makes the injury look worse than it was is photoshopped or some such.
    3, The injury depicted in the photo is accurate, and somehow Zimmerman got cleaned up/healed by the time he was shown in the surveillance camera from the station so that too is accurate.

    It appears that Zimmerman was diagnosed with various injuries the day after the shooting, but that he declined to get treated the night of.

    https://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zi...heds-light-injuries-trayvon/story?id=16353532

    Now it is possible that he was going to tough out the severe beating that Martin gave him that night and then changed his mind and sought treatment. Or it could be that he was basically OK the night of the incident and then injured himself to bolster the self-defense story.
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2021
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  16. Chaos Descending

    Chaos Descending 14th Level Human Cleric

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    Taken by police the night of the shooting.

    [​IMG]
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  17. Chaos Descending

    Chaos Descending 14th Level Human Cleric

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    The picture Demi shared was taken by the police at the police station the night of the shooting.
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  18. Chaos Descending

    Chaos Descending 14th Level Human Cleric

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  19. Fisherman's Worf

    Fisherman's Worf I am the Seaman, I am the Walrus, Qu-Qu-Qapla'!

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    Man, he really got into the cherry Fun Dip.
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  20. Tererune

    Tererune Troll princess and Magical Girl

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    The point I got to with this was.

    1. I do not agree the law should let you claim self defense when you get yourself involved with the fight and kill someone. You should have to make every effort to avoid and retreat from the altercation. Zimmerman was in a car, and he could have escaped and had no reason to be toe to toe with treyvon to begin with. Maybe a mitigated charge or mitigated time for circumstances of his pussy ass getting whipped because he decided to get into it with a teenager, but the laws suck.

    2. Zimmerman should have been charged with assault for getting into the fight with treyvon. OK, the laws on self defense suck, but both sides were guilty of assault and if treyvon had survived he should have also been charged because they both entered into it. There is no doubt wussyman and martin had a physical altercation they both got into. There is phone call evidence for this on both sides.

    3. The police should not be deciding self defense and the state should have to do something aside from let a person go when they have killed someone. If you kill someone you should have to prove it was necessary in a court of law. This should not be decided by some towny cops or dropped by the prosecutor. It should go before a judge or jury and thew killer should need to defend themselves according to the law. If the cops or court want to ROR the person that is the benefit they can give a person who is claiming self defense if they feel they are not a threat to the public.

    If you want to argue it is self defense that is up to you, but there was a crime that zimmerman was guilty of. he assaulted someone. That should have been a charge. You can be guilty of both assault and murder. Neither of the two belonged in the other one's face. Zimmerman is a violent fuck who likes to beat up women and go after those he feels are weaker than him. All in all he should be in prison for that behavior alone.
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  21. Elwood

    Elwood I know what I'm about, son.

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    You know what they say about opinions, right?

    When it comes to legal matters, definitions matter. When it comes to legal definitions, only three sources matter. The Courts, Black's Law Dictionary, or the Statutes themselves.

    For the purposes of this discussion, legally, the primary element of "stalking" is a course of conduct. Following someone is. not. a. crime. Following someone multiple times may be a crime IF it shows a pattern of conduct composed of a series of acts over a period of time which evidences a continuity of purpose, and IF it shows a credible threat, and IF the behavior serves no legitimate purpose. Further Constitutionally protected conduct is specifically excluded from consideration in this charge.

    That comes directly from Title 13A, Chapter 6, Article 5, Section 62 of the Code of Alabama.

    Use that definition, then you can build an opinion.
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2021
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  22. Elwood

    Elwood I know what I'm about, son.

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  23. oldfella1962

    oldfella1962 the only real finish line

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    "Zimmerman is a violent fuck who likes to beat up women and go after those he feels are weaker than him. All in all he should be in prison for that behavior alone." - Tererun

    nobody likes a wife beater/bully. But Martin wasn't being tried for those crimes - that's not how our justice system works with a jury trial. Your entire character isn't on trial, you are on trial for a specific incident and the state has to prove it's case against you.

    For a matter of perspective do I think O.J. Simpson committed those murders? Yes I do because the murder victims didn't commit suicide and there aren't many persons of interest/suspects who could have done it AFAIK. :shrug: You win some, you lose some. Either way his victims are dead and they aren't coming back, but the legal prosses remains intact just the same. It's not a perfect system but it works as well as any other for the overwhelming majority of the population.
  24. Steal Your Face

    Steal Your Face Anti-Federalist

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    Just to catch up, teenagers should never be killed simply because they are teenagers, even if they pose a definite threat to your life and there’s probably some racial component there, sound about right?
  25. Jenee

    Jenee Driver 8

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    Or, we could just take Plato's advice from 3000 years ago and lock up all children at 12 and don't let them out until they're 20.
  26. Steal Your Face

    Steal Your Face Anti-Federalist

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    An oldie but goodie, if you listen to old Vietnam vets who are willing to talk about it, they were forced to kill 12 year olds because Communists didn’t give a shit about them so they put guns in their hands and trained to shoot at the evil Americans. In the end, it’s either you or them. Same goes for Muslim extremists, they will use 12 year olds as human shields, but hey, they’re teenagers so we shouldn’t kill them. By the way, those vets never got over it and felt like shit for the rest of their lives. But @Fisherman's Worf will just tell how much of a piece of shit they are and it’s immoral to defend yourself, even though a lot of people were drafted.
  27. Tererune

    Tererune Troll princess and Magical Girl

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    Sometimes you bring up some good points. War is one horrible fuckpile of forced immorality and defiling of the better parts of human nature and compassion. It is one of the reasons I hate how casually the world full of different factions engages in it. It is just not simple at all.
  28. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    That would just make a lot more children. :D
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  29. Jenee

    Jenee Driver 8

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    Lol. Yea, probably shouldn’t lock them all up in the same room.
  30. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    The video you watched was from ABC. It was grainy and far away.

    They enhanced it and it clearly showed the injuries.
    https://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/ge...ed-video-shows-injury-trayvon-martin-16053206

    Also note he's wearing the same clothes as the photos that also clearly show the injury.

    And the police report states he was injured in that manner, per CD.

    You can theorize all you want, but these facts are known.