Trayvon Martin/George Zimmerman Tangent #654

YOu just want to talk just to be talking. Whatever it is you are reading and responding is not what I'm posting. So, ... go away.

Well, if I misunderstood you it comes down to this sentence in that post:

Which is nonsensical. I did wait a few mins to see if you were going to edit it.

Because a) no one gets 'accused' of self-defense, but yes, you can affirm self-defense and still be found guilty of a crime.

I hope you can see why that would be difficult to parse.

This is what Fishman's Worf said and you disagreed with and this is what I said which you disagreed with.

That just means that the jury did not agree that it was self defense. You still committed the crime and are still guilty.

Sure, if one hadn't been following the conversation.

The point is,

The individual is charged with a crime.

That charge may be murder.
That charge may be burglary
That charge may be ... skipping school.​

The individual can claim a defense

That defense may be self defense
That defense may be it was mine, I was just taking it back
That defense may be I was bored.

​

But.

The individual is never charged with "self defense".

First you must take an action.

THEN, you defend that action.


Call it whatever the fuck you want. But, the underlying action is the crime. Self defense is the defense.

So, to claim self defense, you are admitting you committed the crime. Otherwise, the claim of self defense makes no sense.

No. If it was genuinely self defense, then no crime was committed by the person who defended themselves in the first place. They're defending their actions, but not admitting to having committed a crime. Plus you're ignoring the fact that in many cases the person who had to use deadly force to defend themselves are never charged with a crime in the first place...because it was self defense.

Zimmerman was charged with murder
He claimed self-defense
The 12 jurors believed him
He was found "not guilty by reason of self defense".​

That does not mean the following is untrue.

It means the defendant was found not guilty of murder.

He still killed someone.

We can argue whether or not we agree with the jury's verdict.

But, no one can argue that Zimmerman did not kill Martin.

No one is arguing that Zimmerman didn't kill Martin. And Zimmerman was initially cleared because there was no evidence that it wasn't self defense, but because of all the protests and outrage, the Governor appointed a special prosecutor to charge him.

Yes, mob justice . . . great when you agree with it, not so great when you don't.

If Treyvon Martin were white, this discussion wouldn't even exist and Zimmerman would be completely justified.

Did @Diacanu hack your account?

I don't know if you mean by "this discussion," this thread or the larger one that's taken place since the killing itself.

But I can say for myself that I would not have changed a word that I've written in this thread if the race of Martin or Zimmerman were different. I assume the same goes for Jenee and various others.

I think it's very clear that @Jenee thinks race is a component.

My son’s father is 1/4 Mexican. Older Son likes to tell everyone that he is Mexican. I was young and did not teach him as I should have. He also thinks “white privilege” doesn’t apply because he’s Mexican.

Here’s the thing though that both my older son and those defending Zimmerman are not taking into account. Older son and Zimmerman were both raised as white men and pass as white men. If Older Son looked Hispanic, his entire life as well as his outlook would be vastly different. I can’t speak to Zimmerman, but, he does not look as if he has spent his entire life being judged by the color of his skin.

So, no, my views and my opinions do not change knowing Zimmerman is of Hispanic descent.

Clear? You have no idea.

if the DA knows they don't have a case, they almost assuredly do not have a case - it's kinda what they do for a living so they pretty much have things figured out.
When it turns out that sure enough they don't have a winnable case (for a murder charge anyway) the crowd goes wild. We've seen this movie before and we'll see it again.
The elevated level of collective outrage and emotion can't make chicken soup out of chicken shit - sometimes a preventable tragedy (most are) is just a preventable tragedy.

That's a really common misconception:

Thinking that race is a component does not mean that thinking it is such a prominent component that someone would change their opinion about the underlying incident.

True you wouldn't change a word about your opinions, and most people wouldn't. However there are some wordforge members (and many thousands of people in general) that take the attitude that just because Trayvon was black and Zimmerman semi-white it makes Trayvon's death 1000 times worse.....and of course his race makes his death 1000 times more news-worthy.

That said it is interesting to note that all through the actual Derek Chauvin trial the races of both Floyd and Chauvin were never a factor nor rarely mentioned.
It was did Derek Chauvin the person murder George Floyd the person. That gives me some hope that "the court of public opinion" still doesn't sway actual justice - or at least it's not a certainty by any means.

Probably because white Martin wouldn't have gotten shot.

This. Most incidents of homicide in self-defense don’t result in charges, let alone a trial, let alone an affirmative defense requirement, unless the police and DA and/or grand jury (depending on the state) think there’s probable cause to believe a crime has been committed. Homicide in self-defense is not a crime. A live person with Zimmerman’s injuries, a dead person without any beyond the fatal wound, and a smoking gun alone do not make for probable cause.

It's also worth noting that the Police have a few minutes to make a probable cause determination whereas the DA can take, literally, up to a year and conduct their own investigations. Even then, it's up to the courts to deny charges or proceed.

I, on my own, have no investigatory authority, but I can order the police to provide more evidence.

bull-mother-fucking-shit. You're telling me if you're getting your head slammed into the ground by somebody and you fear for your life you give a shit about their skin color?
Or taking another approach if a white kid that fit the general description of a possible burglar/intruder who's been active in the area Zimmerman wouldn't have done exactly what he did on that night in trying to engage the suspicious suspect? That's a whole bunch of speculation and supposing you're pitching. Sorry, not buying it.

The second one.

But what's that about Martin matching a description of a burglar? I haven't heard that one.

That is a nice excuse for the racxism, but zimmerman knew the robber was caught before he had his run in with treyvon. Also, zimmerman is not the police. He was not even security. He was the neighborhood watch. He saw a black kid, decided he was the robber that was in jail, and because all black kids are the same and he was cosplaying a cop he had the right to harass and assault any black kid in the neighborhood. Had it been a white kid he would have never done such a thing as the parents would have had him arrested for assaulting their children in their neighborhood.

I live in areas with actual security in florida. If you have the nerve to harass a karen or their kids as security you had better be right. Security does not even say boo to people who go around security gates or demand the guards open up. You would not believe that attitude of karens when they break into the neighborhood, and god forbid you harass mama bears kids. the HOA would string you up for that shit. But if it is a brown person then you have no power unless you know a board member, and even then you are not getting anywhere because harassing brown people in the neighborhood is what they have security for.

Shooting of Trayvon Martin - Wikipedia

Zimmerman offered discriptions of people (when requested by police) he called in during his neighborhood watch activities. They happened to be black. What I posit is ff they were mostly hispanic or white then any hispanic or white person of suspicion would have been followed/engaged by Zimmerman. Granted we'll never know. But to say that Martin was shot because he was black is a baseless claim. Zimmerman's killing Trayvon wasn't the issue so much as the possible civil rights violation, which was of course not proven because at no point could Zimmerman be considered a racist. Martin happened to be black and he and Zimmerman had a physical & deadly confrontation.


From January 1, 2011, through February 26, 2012, police were called to The Retreat at Twin Lakes 402 times.[34] Crimes committed at The Retreat in the year prior to Martin's death had included eight burglaries, nine thefts, and one shooting.[35] Twin Lakes residents said there were dozens of reports of attempted break-ins, which had created an atmosphere of fear in their neighborhood.[2]

In September 2011, the Twin Lakes residents held an organizational meeting to create a neighborhood watch program. Zimmerman was selected by neighbors as the program's coordinator, according to Wendy Dorival, Neighborhood Watch organizer for the Sanford Police Department.[5][36]

Zimmerman had made nearly 50 calls to police between 2004 and 2012 to report various local disturbances, such as loud parties, open garage doors, potholes, and children playing in the street.[34][35][37] Following break-ins in the neighborhood in 2011, Zimmerman's calls to police increasingly focused on reporting people he suspected of criminal activity.[10][35]

During the months leading up to the February 26, 2012, shooting, Zimmerman called the police several times to report people he believed to be suspicious. On each of the calls, Zimmerman offered information about the race of the suspects only when specifically asked by the dispatcher to do so; his reports said that all were black males.[38][39][40][Note 2]

Okay! So the description that he matched was that he was a black dude? And the description didn't match a prowler, but some people Zimm thought was "suspicious"? And you're calling bullshit on me for saying WHITE Martin probably wouldn't have been shot? You are SUCH a moron. :edit: I shouldn't laugh. It's actually quite sad.

Jesus tap dancing christ if uber-race obsessed Tererun is ever selected as a juror our justice system is FUBAR.

fuck you retard.

Dude. Come on.

Well, in his defense, I did point out the fact that he's a fucking moron.

In my defense, I did miss that part.