Trans activists failing to persuade people on the sports issue

And some sweet genetics.

Fair enough. Ultimately I think and hope that the issue will go away, because we support our trans-youth and they get the hormone blockers that make whatever competitive advantages they may or may not have moot.

Until then though there's a real question of fairness. And the litany of women who fought for the opportunity for their own leagues so they can compete among their peers is very, very long. Hell, it's historic.

I think it is really unfair to categorize them as bigots, especially as we can see with the sliding scale of what levels of therapy trans people undergo is still being determined among the governing bodies of these sports.

Ideally we'll get to a place where it's not in question. I just don't think we are quite there yet, and not everyone who thinks that are Fox news acolytes.

That's the same with all life.

It shouldn't be simply what hormones you've had access to.

The 462nd best swimmer shouldn't become the 1st for no other reason than they chose to compete in a less difficult venue.

One that has been reserved for people without those hormones for the first 20 years of their life.

And if they tried to get an advantage by partaking in those hormones, they'd be banned from the sport.

The Macho Man Randy Savage scenario?
That's not a thing.

Stop parading Rogan-ism as sensitivity.
No one's buying.

But that's life. There always will be a more or less difficult venue and people are constantly looking for or pushed to the place where they are successful. That's as often to a less difficult venue as not.

Success isn't whether you are better than someone.

Knock it off. That is sophistry and you know it

This comes back to being distracted from the real problem for something that does not effect everyone. I remember the gay marriage fight as I was getting destroyed in my career for coming out. I never wanted to be married at all, but everyone was focused on gay marriage instead of getting some protection from anti-discrimination laws.

I really could care the fuck less if some trans kid cannot swim for their college money. It simply should not be done to begin with because games have no bearing on whether or not you should be in college.

There are trans people dying on the streets because no one will hire them, and it is legal because of Jesus. People are allowing the criminalization of allies by the US Nazi party. Worse than that the Nazi party is still half of our government or more. These people are also destroying brown people and women for their god cheeto who wants to make us a russian asset.

Who the fuck cares about some high school swim meet or anything else like that? It is just a distraction from the evil disgusting nature of the right. If you win the battle of high school sports, or even adult sports, who the fuck cares? It is all some pointless game that means nothing. The only tyhing that was worth a damn in the last olympics was dick cozies PSAs so men know their penis could freeze.

We have better things to worry about,. and I really don't give a fuck about the .0000001 percent of people who might play a game at the elite levels. The rest of the trans community could use a little help because getting employed flipping burgers is a problem due to Jesus fascists.

Y'know, I have a theory about why the existence of transfolk makes some people immediately crawl up their own assholes, and the "teenagers will switch gender just to get an advantage in sports" argument plays right into it.

If you are a man and have always felt like a man, then it should be very easy for you to put yourself in a trans person's shoes. Simply picture yourself having a female body and how wrong that would feel, and voila -- you have it. A way to imagine a trans person's feelings and empathize with them.

If you can't imagine how wrong it would feel ... then maybe your gender just isn't a very big part of your identity. Which, for a traditionalist, is probably very hard to swallow.

Similarly, if you can imagine a teenage boy living life as a girl just to win some track and field trophies, it suggests that you don't think that would be particularly difficult. Which, again, suggests that your sense of gender identity isn't all that strong. And that, in turn, is a thought that might make an insecure man's testicles retreat into his body.

(Personally, I have no problem admitting that gender isn't a huge part of my identity, and that I'm just taking the path of least resistance. I'm fine with being male, and if I'd been born female, I'm pretty sure I would be fine with that too. I have no interest in forging any kind of complex non-binary identity; I don't mind just saying "hey, whatever parts I got, that's what I'm going with." But I imagine that for insecure people, in particular men who are deeply invested in traditional gender roles, that would be an extremely difficult thing to admit.)

I would just like to put something else out there. Sports and body shaming are the biggest reason for children suicide around.

I am actually pretty good with pushing the trans kids away from that toxic environment. Find something useful and meaningful to do with your life, and do your games recreationally. Professional sports are a horrible bane on our society, and their fans are the worst.

Exactly how I feel.
If I woke up in a woman's body I wouldn't be either "yuck!" or "yay!" I'd be tying to solve the mystery of how it happened like a Starfleet officer confronted with a weird thing.
If I couldn't solve it, I'd roll with it.

Yes, because Alfonse Boone's life is exactly the same as Tom Brady's. Never heard of Boone? Right.

Hate to rain on your lsd trip, but there are real life consequences, not only in sport but in almost every competitive endeavor, to being the best. Versus being a clerk at the local qwiki-mart.

The fact you'd prefer that to not be the case is completely irrelevant. Objectively, it is the case.

The 118lb bantam weight boxer doesn't compete against the 240lb super heavy weight for a reason. Several of them, actually.

Lisa Leslie never had to worry about trying to outrebound Shaquille O'Neal. She's the best ever at her sport, but you'd literally have to worry about her safety if she tried to compete with Shaq, even though they are both hall of famers playing at the same time in the same sport.

Again you trot out the Macho Man Randy Savage scenario.
You've already been told this isn't a thing.
Stop it.

I have mentioned this before. I may want to be a woman, but I do not want to be treated like a woman. I also do have a little bit of curiosity on whether or not I would eventually get pissed when getting a period got old. I have often wondered if some more FtM trans people are more bothered with the pains and problems of being a woman over actually wanting to be a man.

Way back when I heard of a trans man becoming pregnant I absolutely doubt he has the same gender dysphoria I have. Being pregnant would have to be 9 months of pure rapey hell for an actual trans man. You are doing something so intimately feminine and allowing a creature inside of your body. Reminder, I am not trans male so people make their own choices and I am not getting into telling trans men they cannot do it because it is whatever makes them happy. I have made that mistake before and these are only my opinions and I have no need to enforce them on anyone, and I would fight against anyone who would.

It just seems like every time I read about someone reversing their decision to transition it seems to be a FtM, and I wonder if the psych community needs to better understand the difference in men and women reasoning towards transitioning.

I am just saying this because it is not just poof you change and the body is just the same. There are environmental factors to it also. I do not want to go in the women's room. It was interesting at first, and then I realized the women's room sucks because it is a meeting ground and child care playground. I have emergency bladdar issues and I do not want to wait for some woman and her 15 toddlers to be done in the stalls. It is a fucking zoo. I also do not want to spend more than an hour looking socially acceptable to go to the grocery store or get a cup of coffee. Then there is the worries over carrying a pussy. It may be no big deal to you, but there are a lot of shitty dudes who want in that. I am not your fuck machine. Then everyone assumes you dressed sexy because you want a dude. That just gets downright annoying. I wore these painful hooker boots and am breaking my feet for me, not for some loser with a neck beard who hasn't bathed in a month.

There is literally someone in this thread stating that they want to get rid of gender roles in sports.

You get that, Dicky? They are saying that Shaq should post-up Lisa. Even though he's nearly 200 pounds heavier than her. Either that, or Lisa doesn't get to play.

That's a really shitty thing to do to all the women athletes out there.

And yes, it's pretty shitty to do to the women athletes trying to compete against a transgender woman who has what is know twice the legal level of testosterone in her system, and 20 years of hormones making her bigger and stronger.

But hey, screw them women folk, right?

You're lumping several people together, I think.

First off, what you are describing is cis cheaters and rapists. Second, you do not just declare yourself trans and you are. If you are transitioning and have some legal reason to be in those places you live the life.

You are lying about what happens, and you have been told otherwise. You do not take female hormones to rape women because they very quickly destroy your ability to be aroused. It physically ends it and it becomes permanent. Your dick shrivels up and becomes limp. Your testicles stop producing semen. You will lose your ability to orgasm. It is basically chemical castration. Stop your lies.

These are the bullshit fear mongering arguments. I have no problem with some regulations on being legally considered a trans person. Right now these regulations are somewhat in place. If you want to legally change your gender you need to go before a magistrate and offer up your proof that you are living as the gender, and you need a diagnosis from a gender care psychologist. You should also have things like prescriptions and physical evidence the gender characteristics of that treatment.

Are there idiot cis people who thought of these things? Yes, but those people do not walk the walk, and they are not trans. This is not a no true scotsman argument because there are actually things a trans person has to do aside just saying they are that gender to legally be considered in that group.

When you do say these claims please do remind us all that these rapists and cheaters are people like you, and they are not someone who chemically and surgically alters their body.

And I think that my identity is very much tied to being a male. Not only that, I'm a somewhat big and strong one. So that's impacted my sense of fairness from the beginning. I know it isn't fair for me to use my physicality. I've been told my entire life I have to be more careful than weaker people because I might hurt them. Hell, even against other men who willfully chose to compete I've knocked several unconscious playing sports. I also understand I'm held to a higher standard for that. Even a smaller man can get away with more than I can because they aren't considered a threat.

So imagine my sense of the bewilderment of saying that somone like me should have no compunctions about competing against others who haven't had the hormones and strength that comes with it. Hell, as I teenager I could leg press half a ton.

It strikes me as a very unfair concept. I understand that over time that can change, and that with hormone blockers those physical features I have due to sex hormones would not have been implemented. But those boundaries are still being tested, and we should err on the side of caution.

As to sense of identity, I have no idea what I would be like as a woman. For the simple reason there is definitely a biological difference that would have made me literally a different person. Maybe you'd be a slightly different version of the same person. I don't think that would be the case with me.

That doesn't make one of us right or wrong over that issue. But I'm surprised you can't see it from my perspective.

Dude go fuck yourself with this faux caring about women's sports. The only reason men care about women's sports is scantily clad women jumping up and down. If a tranny had some large boobies and was wearing a bikini and you did not know she ever had a dick you would be fapping all day long.

The real reason you do not want trans men in sports is you are afraid they will sexually arouse you. You are afraid to jerk off to one and not know it. You do not give a fuck about women competing in sports, and you can stop lying about it.

I love idiots who start coming out for teenage girls sports because every one of them is a leering pedo.

READ. THE. THREAD. LOL.

^ This is the thing. There seem to be a lot of people that just want to flip a switch and make this automatically happen, and say piss off to anyone who disagrees

That’s not a good way to go about this, this is a huge thing that is counter to universally accepted historical norms and affects millions and millions of people who are very passionate about sports along the way

People are rightly confused which inevitably leads to anger. There needs to be a lot more done in terms of dialogue to get everyone on the same page and determine the most fair outcome possible

Just ramming it down everyone’s throat and saying “tough shit” isn’t remotely the best way to go about this

My, aren't you the raging sexist.

You are confusing seeing it from your perspective with agreeing with you. You can see things from someone else's perspective and know they are wrong.

Yet again, you claim all someone guy has to do is say they are a woman and they are on the women's team, in their locker room, and raping women. You are wrong and it does not happen that way. You claim that we all have to agree with your lies to understand you is untrue.

You are a lying pedo. This need for you to keep teenage female sports purely cis is so transparent. No one gave a fuck about girl's high school sports, except girls, until there might be someone with a tucked penis out there.

BTW have you even seen society. I am not a raging sexist, I am just observant and playing the overwhelming odds.

Let me inform you that the biggest rapist of girls and women are cis men. No one else is even in competition. The porn industry and fapping to the female body is all cis straight males. Fapping is a word that comes from male masturbation to porn.

Do not get up on your purile high horse and pretend you are not one. I used to work renting porn. I have worked in the IT industry. Our massive bandwidth is bought and paid for by porn. Our processing and video rendering power is bought and paid for by scantily clad women and girls in video games.

You are such a liar.

I didn't say that at all.

But then, if you didn't have someone else's opinion to strawman you'd literally have nothing to say.

I chalk your whining up to truth hurts so you can get back to fapping to high school girls.

LOL. Sure. It's impossible that I have had friends with daughters in sports that would be heartbroken if that were taken away from them. I certainly couldn't have dated any women in college who were student athletes and went to their games, or had friends in high school on state championship sports teams that talked glowingly of their experience.

I'm a cismale (spit), I can't have empathy.

It HAS to be because I want to feel safe wanting to fuck 14 year old girls.

Nothing you said there has a single thing to do with me.

But it sure as hell is informative about you.

LOL.

@Demiurge meet @Tererun

I just did. Catch up, kiddo.