Trans activists failing to persuade people on the sports issue

Discussion in 'The Red Room' started by Rimjob Bob, Jan 18, 2022.

  1. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    Relative arguments aside, your last statement is clearly false.

    The NCAA has already changed the rules for swimming. The next Lia won't be able to compete, because her testosterone level was twice that of the current guidelines.

    That doesn't mean Transathletes can't compete. They just need to meet guidelines that mean their transition has actually reached a point where they won't have an unfair advantage.

    Considering how new this phenomenon is, you'd think people interested in science and justice would support the latest data and making sure it was a fair competition.

    Instead, they are locked into dogma.

    Hell, it's easier than thinking.
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2022
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  2. Uncle Albert

    Uncle Albert Part beard. Part machine.

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    Because that doesn't force the rest of the world to acknowledge their identity.
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  3. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    Yes, but ultimately this comes down to the differences between gender and sex. And what we've seen in the last decade is an attempted revolution to replace the concept of sex with gender. And honestly, there are a lot of compelling arguments to that. The data does show a very small percentage of people that are intersex. And a growing number that have gender dysphoria and don't identify with their sex at birth. These people should have the ability to determine their own path forward. And while UA certainly does not believe in a right to dignity, if you think there is a right for everyone to be treated with some level of compassion of course you won't misgender someone who may very well be having a difficult time in their transition.

    The question is do they have a legal right over that, and that's still being explored. Latest court ruling says no, they don't, at least in the US. You can't fire a school employee if they utilize the wrong pronoun. The right of dignity is so far not one that any court has stated existed, and certainly doesn't exist in law.

    But regardless, gender and sex are not overlaps on a venn diagram.

    Someone in the process of transitioning is not sexually speaking fully a women yet. That's the point of the transition. What we are seeing in athletics is the fact that isn't a uniform process, the transition works at different speeds due to different people's body chemistries, and they've found the need to adjust the original guidance of a year to a further extension of it to three years, and halving the amount of testosterone, in order to make sure all these athletes don't have any unfair advantages.

    As to any specific swimmers that say they don't mind and are supportive, that's great. However, they don't speak for everyone - 40% of this particular athlete's own team backed a letter of complaint. Clearly some of her competitors in this specific competition had issues.

    And their rights for equality are just as valid as anyone else's.
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2022
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  4. matthunter

    matthunter Ice Bear

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    That's great, and all, but I'd like to see where you'd stand if you (born male) wanted to compete AS a male but your testosterone levels were too LOW.
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  5. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    Not sure I see the relevance. I'd be allowed to compete, as there'd be no reason to believe I had an advantage. Odds are that I wouldn't be very competitive though, as there is a direct correlation between muscle mass and testosterone. It's literally a naturally produced anabolic steroid. It's the primary reason men are stronger and faster than women.

    But hey, if you are good enough knock yourself out - and there are a lot of sports where hands/eye coordination is more important than strength or speed.

    In sports that strength or speed are important, the most likely outcome is I try and give it my best, but don't make the team.

    In which case I can try community based sports or intramural sports if I really want to play, and those have many of the same benefits in terms of teamwork and camaraderie.
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  6. matthunter

    matthunter Ice Bear

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    Just checking you see the error in logic that a testosterone level has to be low enough to prove you're a woman, but doesn't have to be high enough to prove you're a man.

    And that you don't see an issue with that. In fact, you pulled the "not much of a man" argument.
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  7. steve2^4

    steve2^4 Aged Meat

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    Ahhh, the old it's all about winning, not how you play the game strategy.

    Did you even bother to read Sullivan's statement? They were the second place holder in that group photo.
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  8. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    Wow, you actually think that's a gotcha. That's... quite something. LOL.

    You asked about low testosterone levels in men regarding sports. I answered it within that context. There's natural variability, and yes some men do indeed have more testosterone than others.

    You can have deficient levels of testosterone to generate primary male sexual characteristics, that's called hypogonadism. It's been categorized into three known syndromes - Turner, Klinefeller, and CHARGE. If it's hereditary, so it occurs before puberty, then you absolutely will be given testosterone supplements. There are also drugs that can be used to block estrogen binding, which artificially stimulates natural testosterone.

    If you have developed primary sex characteristics of male, you are a male. So your question as worded already posited that it was a man. It was specifically what you stated. So there must be enough testosterone in the system to develop those characteristics.

    As to making a 'not much of a man' argument, that's your toxic take on this. Plenty of men have a range of testosterone in their system, and quite a few men have less as they age. If your statement is if you aren't good at sports, the contention in question, you aren't a man, I'd recommend some therapy. Clearly you have some unresolved issues.

    The fact that testosterone is a performance booster in sport is widely known and scientifically documented. That's why artificially increasing the level is banned in almost all sporting competitions. It's literally anabolic steroids.

    The fact you think that's some type of gotcha when I was simply explaining how the biology of it works means you need to reassess your dogma. Dogma always breaks when exposed to the real world. You just substituted it for truth.

    Considering you don't understand how this works within the frame of competitive sports means you almost certainly haven't actually participated.

    I'd never say that makes you less of a man.

    But you just did.
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  9. 14thDoctor

    14thDoctor Oi

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    If it's good enough for boxing, wrestling, and MMA, I don't see why it's not good enough for every other sport. :yes:
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  10. matthunter

    matthunter Ice Bear

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    Wow. This sounds almost like medically determining one's sex.

    If the sex is question is male.

    I don't consider it a gotcha to point out that society considers males better at sports and therefore that all the effort at stopping trans competition is going only in one direction. That's not just on you.

    You DID use the word toxic, though. And it is.
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  11. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    Third, actually. Yes, I read it.

    The question I have is when did she acquire the ability to void other people's rights because she isn't bothered by it.

    Again, 40% of Lia's own swim team sent a letter of protest.

    She's allowed to disagree, but her disagreement doesn't invalidate their perspective.

    And, of course, the rules have already been changed to stop the next Lia from competing. If more data and science comes out and says that is wrong, I'll support that guideline being modified as well.
  12. matthunter

    matthunter Ice Bear

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    Facepalm away, Demi. But you're the one arguing it's fine if women transition to men as they won't win, but men transitioning to women will have an unfair advantage.

    It's a pity you think so little of women.
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  13. Ten Lubak

    Ten Lubak Salty Dog

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    Seems that it would be too cluttered, for lack of a better word

    Take the 100yd dash as an example. You’d be running that race what, 4-5 times if you set the height and weight standard? People in that race range from 5’9 to 6’5. Then you’d get the whiney folk that are 5’5 saying “why can’t we have our own height division???” Where do you cap it off?

    It would take like 3 weeks to do a proper track event
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2022
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  14. Diacanu

    Diacanu Comicmike. Writer

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    I'm sure logic and evidence will have the effect of repairing Demi's brain immediately.
    As it always does on WF.
    :yes:
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  15. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    Why yes, some people do consult medicine when determining sex. How about that. And there's a difference between sex and gender. You get that, right?

    LOL. Physics determines men are better at sport. So yes, there is no particular problem in fairness in the other direction.

    The fact you can't comprehend that just reiterates once again that your dogma is more important to you than objective reality.
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  16. Diacanu

    Diacanu Comicmike. Writer

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    Bigots always think they have "objective reality" on their side.
    "Race science" believers were so damned certain phrenology was a real thing.
    Where the Hell is that now?
    I mean, outside of a skinhead pamphlet?
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  17. matthunter

    matthunter Ice Bear

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    It's like someone programmed a Dayton post generator.
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  18. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    You understand that transitioning from women to men the doctors determine how much sex hormones such as testosterone are introduced, and they don't increase those beyond male norms, right? LOL.

    And as that norm is quite varied, from 240 to 900 ng/dl for men, so there's quite a bit of leeway.

    I think women are legally, intellectually and morally the equal of men.

    But biology and physics say women aren't the equal of men in most athletic endeavours.

    You understand that women fought for the right to play their own sports, right? Because they too wanted the opportunity to compete among their peers?
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  19. Diacanu

    Diacanu Comicmike. Writer

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    Yeah, but what about the shape of men's heads?
    Let's get out the calipers.
    :chris:
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  20. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    You are just so damn ignorant. LOL. And self-righteous about your ignorance.

    Could Serena Williams kick my ass in tennis? Of course she could.

    Could she compete with the best male tennis star? According to Serena, no. That's not 'win.' That's 'score a point.' Serena's words.

    The 462nd ranked man just became the 1st ranked woman in collegiate swimming - and that's after losing 5-10% from the times due to the transition. Lia still became the #1 women's swimmer and multiple record holder.

    Here's the record book for running in track and field. Tabbed pages for men and women. You see a single women's record that would beat the men's?

    https://www.worldathletics.org/records/by-category/olympic-games-records

    How about weightlifing. Here's a peer reviewed study on weightlifting by sex and age, published in 2020.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7470362/

    The abstract: We quantified the impact of body weight and age and sex differences for youth and young adults, ages 6 to 30 years old, participating in national level Olympic weightlifting competitions in the United States. Body weight at younger ages has less impact on performance compared to older ages, and boys and girls perform similarly. When reaching the ages typically associated with the onset of puberty, boys’ performances rapidly increase and the gap between genders widens.

    Results: At age 10 the median total weight lifted was 51kg and 54kg, respectively, for girls and boys. From age 10 to 12 a gender gap emerges with a sex difference of 11.7% at age 14 at 55kg body mass. At age 25 the sex-related performance difference is smaller for lighter athletes (23.6% at 69kg body mass) and larger for heavier athletes (29.9% at 81kg body mass)

    So why are you so invested in a topic you clearly know absolutely nothing about?

    Oh, right. Dogma.
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2022
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  21. Diacanu

    Diacanu Comicmike. Writer

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    [​IMG]
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  22. steve2^4

    steve2^4 Aged Meat

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    40% of the team are poor sportspeople. That doesn't surprise me.
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  23. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    I just posted both the record books for track and field and a peer reviewed study on the difference in strength between men and women. I certainly can provide more data if you wish.

    Here you go.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3761733/

    Abstract:
    Here the evolution of the difference between men and women’s best performances is characterized through the analysis of 82 quantifiable events since the beginning of the Olympic era. For each event in swimming, athletics, track cycling, weightlifting and speed skating the gender gap is fitted to compare male and female records. It is also studied through the best performance of the top 10 performers in each gender for swimming and athletics. A stabilization of the gender gap in world records is observed after 1983, at a mean difference of 10.0% ± 2.94 between men and women for all events. The gender gap ranges from 5.5% (800-m freestyle, swimming) to 18.8% (long jump). The mean gap is 10.7% for running performances, 17.5% for jumps, 8.9% for swimming races, 7.0% for speed skating and 8.7% in cycling. The top ten performers’ analysis reveals a similar gender gap trend with a stabilization in 1982 at 11.7%, despite the large growth in participation of women from eastern and western countries...

    Do you care that scientists literally disagree with you? And just a reminder, the NIH in the URL for the study is 'National Institute of Health.'

    Of course not. Science doesn't matter in the face of dogma!

    Phrenology might be useful in this instance.

    It could give us a measure of exactly how thick your skull is, because clearly reality won't penetrate it. :D
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  24. Diacanu

    Diacanu Comicmike. Writer

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    Lot of words to say that I chapped your ass.
    :diacanu:
  25. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    Well, it's rude to just say you are fucking stupid. :D

    But go on, tell me how I must be equivalent to a clansmen because I cite multiple National Institute of Health studies on how men perform better in the vast majority of sports than women.

    You can have different opinions on whether or not Lia should be allowed to compete and whether or not the NCAA should have changed their guidelines. That's absolutely fair.

    But what you are arguing now is literally just physics, and it's not remotely in question to any informed person.

    And yes, that includes the informed scientists at the NIH. :diacanu:
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  26. steve2^4

    steve2^4 Aged Meat

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    She's not a man.

    What are you afraid of?
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  27. Diacanu

    Diacanu Comicmike. Writer

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    He doesn't misgender though.
    Don't say he does, or he'll puke a pile of smug paragraphs at you.
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  28. Man Afraid of his Shoes

    Man Afraid of his Shoes كافر

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    I identify as 6 feet tall even though according to the US standard measurement system, I'm only 5' 11 3/4". I had no problem getting my drivers license changed, but I'm getting a lot of pushback with my birth certificate. :(
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  29. steve2^4

    steve2^4 Aged Meat

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    T is right. Trans people should stay out of sports. There are too many phobes out there for it to be a good experience.
  30. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    Her testosterone levels are still at the levels of a man. This gives her increased strength, speed and recovery.

    Her last test was ~10 nmol/l.

    Normal males levels are between 10 to 35 nmol/l.

    Normal female levels are between 0.5 to 2.4 nmol/l.

    https://www.mountsinai.org/health-library/tests/testosterone

    This seems innately unfair to me, and the women in question's rights shouldn't be dismissed so cavalierly.