"The 1980's are calling to ask for their foreign policy back."

Discussion in 'The Red Room' started by Steal Your Face, Jan 8, 2022.

  1. Tuckerfan

    Tuckerfan BMF

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    Hmm, wonder if the Ukrainian government is trying to fuck with Putin's head by saying this.

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  2. We Are Borg

    We Are Borg Republican Democrat

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    We're talking about two different things.

    You simply cannot compare the geopolitical consequences of what's going in Ukraine/Russia with what's happening in the DRC. That doesn't mean that what's happening in the DRC isn't atrocious, and I'm not opining on whether that's fair or not; it simply is it what it is.
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  3. spot261

    spot261 I don't want the game to end

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    And is virtually unknown in the West, despite the fact that historically a great deal of the blame can be laid at our doors.

    To a child escaping with their parents those geographical political consequences are meaningless.

    To a Syrian child fleeing a bombed home they can't be expected to understand why their family are forced to spend months in a camp, moved on (often violently) by police and abused by the very same public who take a Ukranian family whose home was bombed in and feed them.

    Those differences, those concerns, lie in the minds of people who view "refugees" as being of an almost different species depending on their point of origin.
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  4. Amaris

    Amaris Witch of Winter

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    Look at how Pelosi says "Slava Ukraini" and the US congress sends billions to Ukraine in the name of fighting... what? There are plenty of people who are upset with Russia because of its attack on Ukraine, but where were they when we were bombing Syria, Yemen, Somalia? Has Pelosi ever said anything in solidarity with Haitians? Palestinians? I am honestly not surprised, but definitely dismayed, how easy it is to get people to back another war investment from the United States. YOU and I might care about innocent Ukrainians caught up in the crossfire, but the US doesn't give a dried apple fart outside of its economic interests. People get caught up in this frenzy of patriotism for another country they didn't know about before, but now is truly the last bastion of freedom against the Russian hordes. How easy is it to be drawn into that kind of rhetoric? Willing to throw away friends, associates, family, in order to prop up an agenda that will drop you the moment it gets what it wants?

    US citizens are the most propagandized people in the world. Bar none. It's so easy to whip them up into a nationalism that eschews any and all nuance. Want to look into the history that got us here? That's Russian propaganda. Concerned about why the US is still bombing Somalia? Whataboutism. Why do we have a torture camp in a sovereign country? You're clearly a Putin bot. You want the terrorists Russians to win. Now look, folks, we can't help pay your rent, secure food, take steps to prevent the further spread of COVID, provide even basic healthcare to everyone in need, or stop police from beating the shit out of your black friends and neighbors, but we have to tighten our belts and defend freedom in the Ukraine. No one said it was going to be easy, and you'll have to pay more for gas even though we only get between 3% and 8% of our oil from Russia.

    The United States has done what Russia is doing to Ukraine right now, except we've done it to brown faces, to people we see as used to the devastation. I mean, it has literally been said, that's not my observation, that's news commentators explaining why it's different because this time it's happening to people who look European. The blatant racism is there. The nationalism is there. The white American and Euro-centrism is there. That we also happened to remove restrictions on funding Ukraine's military even if the money goes to Nazis is in our legislative record. I see US citizens saying it's good we sanction Russia, that the Russian people need to fight against their government. Oh, oh boy do I wish you understood what would happen to the United States if we applied that same advice here. If other nations sanctioned the US for its government's past deeds, held the American people responsible for them, how quickly those opinions would wither and die on the vine, and yet here we are, because there are people who think sanctions are a peaceful solution (taking food from a hungry child's mouth is violence), and who think No Fly Zones are just compromises not to allow anyone to fly in specific territory (anyone calling for a No Fly Zone is advocating for war against Russia).

    The people of the US, without question, are some of the most woefully under-informed people in the world, not only in their own country, but in any kind of international context. We're a nation of barely literates who throw our expertise into telling other countries they better do what we say. We arm oppressors in order to secure our wealth, not for our own people, they still suffer in poverty, but for a handful of people who insulate themselves against the worst effects of what is to come. There's just so much to unpack, that a forum posts, a hundred forum posts, a THOUSAND forum posts on the issue will never truly resolve it.

    What's frustrating is some of you will never get this. You'll bumblefuck your way through this, be wrong, and just keep going because stopping and thinking about where you fuck up isn't productive, gotta move on to the next bumblefuck situation where you don't like war but this time it's necessary, or whatever bullshit you've been fed this week tells you. I watch so many of you rehabilitate George W. Bush, the man who murdered a lot of innocent people, because your memories work like spaghetti strainers when it comes to our imperialism here in the US. You're so easy to lead around by the nose, and when someone, anyone, tries to get you to back off from zealous acceptance of a new war narrative, you get pissy. @Man Afraid of his Shoes has unfriended me on FB, ignored me here, and that's fine if he wants to do that, but he's doing it because I pointed out that the US is pulling some bullshit in all of this. Now, if you can't handle the fact that our government plays these games with people's lives every day, and then weaponizes ignorance to endorse them, I truly do not know what to tell you, but I do know that it doesn't matter, because some of you will never learn. The internet's a wild fucking place, it truly is, and while a message board post isn't something that can change people's minds, at least I got to vent a little at watching the exact same war circlejerk that happened in 2003 happen all over again, with the same strains of "I don't like war, but this time it's different."
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  5. matthunter

    matthunter Ice Bear

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    Which is fair enough.

    I think what Amaris is saying is that pretending we care about Ukraine because of the human tragedy is a wee bit hypocritical because, as you point out, what we actually care about is our own security. And other white folk, in many cases.
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  6. Tererune

    Tererune Troll princess and Magical Girl

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    she can explain her ideas and does not fall upon whining about tldr and shitposting. It is really odd to see the canadian being the BDS while the american is caring and empathetic.
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  7. We Are Borg

    We Are Borg Republican Democrat

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    There's nothing to be ashamed about in caring about one's own security. It's baked into our DNA.

    But there are a lot of folks acting morally superior in the last two pages of this thread who need to look in the mirror and give their fucking heads a shake.
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  8. 14thDoctor

    14thDoctor Oi

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    So you're basically just parroting Putin's talking points now, huh?
    Funny how decent peoples opinions about a country changed after that country started getting bombed by Russia. Propaganda must be the only answer. :dayton:
    You're back on this lie, you lying sack of shit? :brood:

    See @MikeH92467 Amaris has no problem lying and shamelessly misrepresenting things whenever those lies support her absurd positions. :async:
    No, you just want to talk shit about us and everyone else like the sad little far-left Pharisee you've become, because it makes your genitals feel tingly and it distracts you from the reality of your own shitty disappointing life for a minute. :shrug:
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  9. Amaris

    Amaris Witch of Winter

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    I heard this same shit when I didn't vote for Biden. What's weird about it is that both you and @14thDoctor are Canadian, telling a US citizen how they should feel about their own country.

    This is what I mean, folks.
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  10. Tererune

    Tererune Troll princess and Magical Girl

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    This and then this again.

    I want to add that the people in america who think it is time to rise up and start a civil war should be seen ass all of our enemies. Look at what is happening in Ukraine and see what it will look like if civil war comes to the US. The right is not going to be lofted up as the protectors of freedom and the saviors of the people. All these fucking idiots are going to do is blow shit up. I am just warning you that is why you have to go left. The more you go right, the more the people who want to blow shit up end up in control of the heavy weapons. This is why you cannot let what is the trump cult now, win. Biden is not doing shit about it. He is just getting run over.

    I am not saying you have to go out and punch nazis, but you do have to prosecute them when they try to take over your country. Trump is still out there golfing and shitting on his golden throne. Meanwhile we are supposed to be forgiving to trump voters for being stupid? Sometimes you have to SJW because people are actually doing some bad shit.
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  11. Paladin

    Paladin Overjoyed Man of Liberty

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    We have to consider that all messages from all sides are psy-ops, but this one seems especially likely.

    If you knew the overthrow of your adversary was in the works, you'd be much better off keeping it to yourself, or perhaps even doing what you could to give cover to the potential usurper.

    By saying this, the Ukrainians are clearly trying to sow seeds of mistrust in Putin's upper echelon.
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  12. 14thDoctor

    14thDoctor Oi

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    You know how I know your position is worthless? Because your only comeback when cornered is "shut up, foreigners." :rotfl:

    KIRK1ADM would be proud. :async:
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  13. Tererune

    Tererune Troll princess and Magical Girl

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    you know how I know your position is worthless? you went all ad-hom and forgot to add any substance.
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  14. Paladin

    Paladin Overjoyed Man of Liberty

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    I support Ukraine not because it's some paragon of western democratic values (it isn't) but because the threat it's facing is a threat to those western democratic values.

    Putin is a menace and I want to see him get the biggest black eye possible. Overthrown would be even better.

    And if we can get China to get off the fence, better still.
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  15. 14thDoctor

    14thDoctor Oi

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    Quickly addressing some other stuff in the thread:

    But America!!

    Fuck off. Absolutely nothing any other country has done justifies what Putin is doing to Ukraine right now. Sorry that coming up with an original thought to respond to this situation is a hassle, but I'm sure you'll manage.

    But not everyone care about the other conflicts equally!

    Most of the other conflicts are civil conflicts where neither side is completely pure or innocent. The Russian invasion of Ukraine a very black and white issue.

    I saw someone complaining that people aren't putting Palestinian fighters on the same pedestal as they are Zelenskyy. Well, maybe if Zelenskyy starts celebrating the murder of innocent Russian civilian babies in the name of his cause, we'll stop celebrating him too. :shrug:

    America is just as bad! Other countries do bad things too!

    Yeah, fuck off. I hope if you ever get stabbed, all you tell the cops is "hey, other people do stabbings too, why are you singling out my attacker for punishment?"
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  16. 14thDoctor

    14thDoctor Oi

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    OR Putin is the sort of guy that mimics Saddam and the Kims and organizes fake coup attempts to root out potential traitors, and Ukraine is letting the Russians know that his particular attempt is the real deal. :chris:
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  17. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

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    I'll post some more on this tomorrow, but while @Amaris has some legitimate points, particularly around the rehabilitation of pondscum like George Bush, it is too reductive to say that what Russia is doing is "the same" as what the US has done in recent conflicts. Or that the Russian political-media environment is other than superficially similar.
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  18. Amaris

    Amaris Witch of Winter

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    The United States has the best propaganda system in the world. It's so good, 1,000,000 people have died from our gross lack of a proper healthcare system, schools being open, people being forced back to work, and we're still talking about Ukraine and agreeing we need to send them money.
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  19. 14thDoctor

    14thDoctor Oi

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    Spock: They're dying.

    Kirk: Let them die!
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  20. Bailey

    Bailey It's always Christmas Eve Super Moderator

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    That's not "without question", if anything the complete opposite. Most people around the world don't pay much attention to international politics, and on average the US population seems at least as informed as that of any other first world country.

    1. Countries can do two things at once.

    2. You seem to be operating under the assumption that there is only one possible way of interpreting everything, so anyone who doesn't share your view hasn't seen all the information.
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  21. Bailey

    Bailey It's always Christmas Eve Super Moderator

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    This derail is getting too long, but it is important to take note of the things the US has done and continues to do wrong, precisely because they're not the devil.

    The US has acted like an arrogant imperial power enough that it would be foolish to shrug off any such claims. It's worth looking at them in order to know when they can be debunked.

    Putin is right now still making the case to his population that this invasion was needed to hold back NATO, that the US is trying to push up against and ultimately destroy Russia.

    To just dismiss and say "no the US and Western Europe would never do that" is foolish, because there is plenty of evidence showing that equivalent things have been done.

    However being open to that and looking at things critically doesn't mean accepting the claim. In this case Putin is absolutely full of shit. Western Europe has been sending Russia billions a year to buy resources from it and all sanctions are purely in response to it's military actions. The reason countries like Ukraine have been moving towards NATO isn't due to any desire to destroy Russia but because they rightly feared that Russia would do something like they are right now.

    At least since the end of WW2 the US has very clearly had the view that military conflict on European soil is a bad thing to be avoided if at all possible and in this situation they are, as much as such a concept means anything in international relations, on the good guys side.

    It is exceptionally frustrating when people refuse to look at the US critically, however it's equally so when you act like doing so requires adopting the position that the US is always wrong.
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  22. Amaris

    Amaris Witch of Winter

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    Were that the case, that is either a horrible indictment of the state of the media worldwide, or of humanity in general, I'm not sure which. The thing is that, coupled with its lack of informed citizenry, the US also meddles in world affairs, so we take that ignorance and export it.

    Countries can do two things at once, but the US isn't doing two things at once. That's the problem. It's only acting in the interests of its corporations. Meanwhile, a lot of US citizens are struggling just to survive. It doesn't have to be this way, but people are already taking on the notion of tightening their belts. Maybe try some lentils instead of beef. We are a deeply unserious society engaging in life or death acts around the world. As for assumptions, this whole thread is nothing but assumption, like @14thDoctor's brilliant analysis that since I'm against the war, against the gatekeeping of immigrants into the US, and speaking up about the damage done by the US to innocent lives around the world (and here at home where kids are still in cages his disbelief notwithstanding), that I'm somehow a right winger. You have to have a horseshoe planted firmly up your ass to believe that for even a moment, and yet, I'm sure he had people nodding their heads. The water is boiling, and some of you are like "it's fine to me, I don't see anyone else complaining," and I just, I guess there's no way to really tell people how to get out from under that if they're so damned insistent on staying there in the boiling water.

    Once Biden became president, half the country went to sleep, and the other half woke up for their shift in blaming the new guy for the exact same thing the previous guy was doing. That is the extent of awareness in the US: how it rates in terms of their party's responsibility. Eventually, the GOP will just be Nazis, and the Democrats will be staunch Republicans, and there will still be people in this forum saying that you have to vote for the lesser evil. There's no way to get through that, there just isn't. The US has a great system going where it gets its own people to punish themselves for being poor and sick.

    The reason I so often mention what the US does wrong is because the US has done a lot of wrong. When someone punches you in the face six times, you don't say it happened once and then let the other five slide. You hold them account for every action, especially when they condemn other nations for what they do. There is still this misconception that the US is largely good and only makes mistakes out of some sense of blind patriotism, but it isn't so. The people who run this country simply don't give a fuck, and will sell you whatever they have to sell you to get just a little more. I would have hoped the past 3 years would open people's eyes to that, but clearly the option for many was to dismiss it, due to their own life issues that keep them too busy to deal with it, or doubled down and assumed that it couldn't be as bad as some of the naysayers, like myself, would seem to indicate.

    The US is an empire, and it is the author of a lot of blood and death. It is a huge obstacle to get around and to see it. It took me a long time, because I wanted to believe all the good things I had been taught, but they're just stories. That's all they are. Stories told to keep us all sleepy and unproblematic. I mean, when we start out as a slave owning nation declaring all men are created equal, who could know the level of contradiction that would create, and how long it would carry through the history of the country? That systemic abuse, that racism, that white supremacy, and that's what it is, that still exists, and it's institutionalized. It's baked in. The only people who can say it's not so bad are the people who don't have to truly worry about what might happen, and right now, the US is easing more and more into its militant jingoism, and it's something I have to worry about, something YOU have to worry about, because the US has 5,000+ nuclear weapons, and thinks it has a stranglehold on the economic well-being of the world, and I believe the world outside of its immediate control are going to finally start realizing just how things have played out for the past few centuries, and will no longer tolerate it.

    You can ignore this, I know many people will because it goes well beyond "it's different this time," because like any abuser, there will always be a justification for the next beating.

    I think I've had my say, and you folks can do whatever you want about how you feel about it.
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  23. 14thDoctor

    14thDoctor Oi

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    You forgot to call us all rapist loving white supremacists. 1/10. :jayzus:
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  24. Amaris

    Amaris Witch of Winter

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    For the same reason I don't call the Daughters of the Confederacy racist. What would I be doing except confusing them?
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  25. Tuckerfan

    Tuckerfan BMF

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  26. We Are Borg

    We Are Borg Republican Democrat

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    While @Amaris is making long, rambling posts, people are dying in Ethiopia from the Tigray War.

    What is she doing about it?

    The hypocrite is wasting time on a message board when she could be over there rendering aid or welcoming refugees into her home. :mad:
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  27. Amaris

    Amaris Witch of Winter

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    I'm actively involved in several international mutual aid orgs right now, dealing with, among others, Ethiopia, Somalia, Yemen, and the group I'm with just sent out a palette of shoes and toiletries to the US border for incoming refugees.

    As I said before, though, you call can do and say what you want, whatever helps you sleep, whatever lets you dismiss everything.
    Oh, and enjoy your universal healthcare, @We Are Borg.
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  28. We Are Borg

    We Are Borg Republican Democrat

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    I will. Thank you.
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  29. spot261

    spot261 I don't want the game to end

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    I think she's pointing out that whilst it's only reasonable to care about the people of Ukraine it's remarkable how selective that concern is.

    Many times we have seen the same or similar scenarios played out, often at our own hands, but we are inconsistent in how we express our decency.

    Remember how many were against the invasion of Iraq because of the inevitable losses to coalition service people?

    Not Iraqi civilians, the troops invading them.

    Remember how we in Europe treated refugees from Syria?

    The contrast between that debacle and the current much more commendable response could hardly be starker.

    Need I go on?

    This isn't USA bad, or even as petty as a comment on which side of their dysfunctional two party "political system" is more hypocritical.

    It's about how easily we manage to turn our backs or open our arms where and when it suits.
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  30. mburtonk

    mburtonk mburtonkulous

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    It's FASTER on mobile? The thread jumps around so much on my phone when it loads tweets that I don't know what post I'm even on.
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