It's HIGH TIME the 2nd Amendment was REPEALED. Sorry Gunforge ,your guns must be TAKEN AWAY from you

Discussion in 'The Red Room' started by Will Power, Jun 7, 2022.

  1. Jenee

    Jenee Driver 8

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    Minimum 3 days between purchase and pick up
    When you die, whoever gets your guns MUST be cleared to receive them
    Undergo hours and hours of videos showing what happens when your guns are misused (for as long as it's necessary for abortions)
    Mandatory safety classes - minimum 20 hours.
    License required to purchase.
    No ability to "gift" someone else a gun
    Cannot buy for someone else.

    The list goes on and on.
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  2. Uncle Albert

    Uncle Albert Part beard. Part machine.

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    No sale.
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  3. jack

    jack Slave To The Rhythm

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    Use Driving a car as a template to start. You have to study a gun safety manual and be able to pass a written and physical test. You have to have a background check. You have to have a license that's renewed every two years. You should be limited in the amount of ammunition you can purchase and sign an affidavit for the ammo's intended use. You must be 21 with no prior felony convictions.

    How's that?
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  4. Steal Your Face

    Steal Your Face Anti-Federalist

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    I’m good with safety courses, licensing and background checks.
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  5. Order2Chaos

    Order2Chaos Ultimate... Immortal Administrator

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    You don't seriously believe that, do you?
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  6. Order2Chaos

    Order2Chaos Ultimate... Immortal Administrator

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    How does any of that affect your property?
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  7. Steal Your Face

    Steal Your Face Anti-Federalist

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    Believe what, that it will pass? Probably not.
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  8. matthunter

    matthunter Ice Bear

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    Believe you actually supported it?

    Definitely not.

    You're a liar.

    We can smell it on you.

    You lying liar.
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  9. Uncle Albert

    Uncle Albert Part beard. Part machine.

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    Gifts between family members are nobody's goddamn business, for one thing. For another I am not nearly so gleeful about permitting bureaucracies to crawl up my ass with a microscope on the "promise" that this private information will never be used to target confiscation.
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  10. matthunter

    matthunter Ice Bear

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    Oversharing much?

    I mean, I sympathize. But you can't let it turn you into one of them, man.
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  11. Paladin

    Paladin Overjoyed Man of Liberty

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    Why? Unless something can be said to happen in those three days that might stop a bad person from acting, this is just an arbitrary hurdle.

    Also, why should this apply if the person already owns several guns?
    It's already the law that you can only transfer guns to those legally able to own them. If you want to leave a rifle to your 10-year-old nephew, you leave it to his parent who will keep it until the nephew is old enough.
    Aversion therapy. Another arbitrary hurdle.
    There's no huge epidemic of gun safety fatalities, and gun safety can be adequately conveyed in three simple rules. Another arbitrary hurdle.
    Nope. We've seen politicians abuse "licensing." Your license to purchase is the U.S. Constitution.
    Do you mean give another a gun as a present? That's perfectly legal and should always be. I've bought a gun as a gift for someone before. It's quite common.

    If you mean transferring a gun to another person, there are laws for that must be done in all 50 states.
    If you mean a straw-man purchase, that's already illegal.
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  12. Jenee

    Jenee Driver 8

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    So, you’re complete unwilling to negotiate. Got it.
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  13. Paladin

    Paladin Overjoyed Man of Liberty

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    I'm responding to your points, but you're not to mine.
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  14. Jenee

    Jenee Driver 8

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    My “points” were just a jumping off point. If you wish to expound or renegotiate a point, do so. But, to just say “no” to all is not even a discussion, let alone a negotiation.
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  15. Paladin

    Paladin Overjoyed Man of Liberty

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    My critique was legitimate. To re-iterate:

    1. Why should a person have to wait 3 days between the purchase and pickup of a gun? If the buyer intends to act criminally or maliciously, what's going to happen in those 3 days to make any difference?
    2. Why should a person who owns several guns have to wait 3 days to buy another?
    3. Laws regarding transfer of guns already exist.
    4. Aversion therapy is not justified. Is there anyone who doesn't realize that guns are deadly weapons?
    5. A gun safety class of 20 hours cannot be justified as a safety measure. First, the problem with accidental deaths is not large. Second, the commitment of time--and cost--is a significant barrier to the exercise of a right.
    6. Gun licensing doesn't accomplish anything other than allowing politicians and bureaucrats to control the issuing of licenses. Licensing has been grossly misused to prevent ordinary people from exercising their rights and to reward people who the authorities favor.
    7. Straw-man purchases are already illegal.
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  16. We Are Borg

    We Are Borg Republican Democrat

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  17. Steal Your Face

    Steal Your Face Anti-Federalist

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  18. Jenee

    Jenee Driver 8

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    Have you ever negotiated anything? I’ve even given you the stronger position by putting a starting point out there. Anything you want to change or remove from the list, you have to give me something.
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  19. Bailey

    Bailey It's always Christmas Eve Super Moderator

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    No, because it's nigh on unreadable.
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  20. Order2Chaos

    Order2Chaos Ultimate... Immortal Administrator

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    Accepted in exchange for the life in prison without possibility of parole for straw purchasers, with strict liability, knowledge of ineligibility not required.
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  21. Paladin

    Paladin Overjoyed Man of Liberty

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    I wasn't negotiating, I'm discussing your proposals.

    But, if you wish, here are mine:

    1. Strengthening security at schools

    2. Require (and fund) mental health monitoring on students in junior high and high schools

    3. (This is a big one, but read my conditions...)
    Universal Background Checks for gun buyers
    The conditions (and ALL must be met or I withdraw my support):
    (1) check is electronic and instantaneous (no artificial delays)
    (2) check is free to buyer and seller (no "let's jack up the fees" bullshit)
    (3) system must have 99.5% uptime over the course of a year (if Amazon can, so can this)
    (4) system may delay no more than 1% of buyers up to 24 hours, and no more than 0.1% beyond that (if people do get delayed--neither accepted nor rejected--it better be rare)
    (5) if the system fails to provide a clearance or rejection in 72 hours, the check is waived and the sale may proceed (the check is an opportunity to intervene, not a dispensation of permission)
    (6) suspected errors in records shall be statutorily required to be addressed and resolved within 3 working days (no "we'll get to it eventually" delays)
    (7) no government retention of information, only a unique code generated for a successful check is recorded on the form 4473 (no "backdoor registration")
    (8) rejected background checks shall state specifically which data resulted in the rejection (no "we rejected you, you guess why" bullshit)
    (9) it shall be a felony to down the system for any reason apart from maintenance (and then only outside normal business hours in all 50 states) (no "turn off gun sales in a natural disaster or civic disorder")
    (10) transfers between immediate members of family are exempt, and no transfer is required for a short-term loan of a gun

    3. Recurrent delinquent or mentally unstable behavior to appear on background checks and, if serious or multiple episodes, a clearance from a mental health professional (criminal behavior, obviously, should already show up)

    4. Allowing teachers to be armed if they choose

    5. Red flag laws BUT some conditions...
    (1) it's a felony to make a knowingly false statement to initiate a red flag (no "weaponizing" the process)
    (2) the response must be tailored to the totality of the evidence, no seizure unless credible imminent danger
    (3) anonymous accusations have higher standards of evidence
    (4) seizure of weapons cannot occur without a judge's order
    (5) in the event of a seizure, a hearing must be held immediately to adjudicate the matter and, if this requires mental health evaluation, it will be provided free of charge to the person if they so choose
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2022
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  22. Jenee

    Jenee Driver 8

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    That much is obvious.

    I didn’t put forth any proposals. I began negotiations.

    Nothing to do with gun control, but … sure. I’ll give you that one.

    Again, nothing to do with gun control, so sure, you can have that one too.

    (1)The delays are not “artificial”. Many MANY shootings are “crimes of passion” - someone gets angry, buys a gun, uses gun. THAT is the reason for a waiting period. Minimum - 3 days.

    (2) Sure. What do I care.

    (3) I don’t even know what that means

    (4) Not sure what you mean by the system may delay 1% …., but that sounds like you’re trying to demand a program to not have any glitches. Not anything to do with gun control. That’s something you need to negotiate with the programmer and whatever 3rd party corporation will create such a program.

    (5) Absolutely no bypassing the precautions under any circumstances. Adamant no.

    (6) Since I’ve no idea the breadth and depth of what that would entail, it cannot possibly be negotiated here and now.

    (7) Privacy laws will cover this. Any changes to privacy laws is an entirely different matter.

    (8) One would think that is a given.

    (9) Again, this is a contractual obligation of the program, programmer, and corporation that owns the program.

    (10) Again, absolutely no bypassing any precautions - even through family members.

    Time limits would need to be imposed between the latest episode and application

    Again, nothing to do with gun control. But, an individual should not be taking their gun to their place of employment - even teachers.

    (1) No. All existing laws regarding false accusations will stay in place. If you wish to amend those laws, that’s an entirely separate discussion.
    (2) Again, this isn’t about “taking” your guns. It’s about preventing guns from being in the hands of dangerous people.
    (3) Agreed. As long as it applies to both parties.
    (4) Sure.
    (5) any hearings or legal procedures requiring court appearances is entirely up to the schedule of courts and cannot be changed just because someone did something so stupid that it resulted in having their guns taken away. So, no. No special treatment for morons.
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  23. Paladin

    Paladin Overjoyed Man of Liberty

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    This is largely mythical. Not saying it never happens, but if you imagine someone boiling over with rage going into a gun store, filling out the paperwork, having the background check run, so they can go right out to kill someone while they're still angry... that's not reality. If the hour it takes to buy the gun doesn't let them cool off, they're not going to.

    Also, gun stores are pretty good at refusing service to anyone who looks emotionally unbalanced. If a guy is muttering "gonna kill that bitch" while filling out the paperwork, they're not going to sell him the gun.


    The Uvalde shooter did go immediately to shooting when he got his guns, but he wasn't some raging out-of-control person. He was planning this and so a waiting period only would've delayed him. Indeed, he waited until he was old enough to carry out his plan.
    The system that process the check searches electronic records. It can't do that if it's down (not working or taken off-line). The uptime (the fraction of the time it's working and available) must be very high, otherwise those running the system can slow everything down by making the system unavailable. Unacceptable.
    For a variety of reasons, the system may not be able to provide a firm yes or no in every single case, and it may require more time. This is acceptable but only if it's rare. The check must be instantaneous for the vast, vast majority of inquiries.
    If the system can't decide yes or no in 72 hours the system is inadequate. If that rules isn't in place, the system can be misused to thwart gun purchases by delaying the background check indefinitely.

    Remember: I'm agreeing to the background check (what you want, right?) but only under the condition that there can be ZERO games played with it.

    You have to understand that gun owners have seen a lot of this. And it's why we're resistant to a lot of these ideas.
    Computer data is not always accurate. You ever had a wrong bill or been confused with someone else? It happens.

    But delays here are delays in the exercise of people's rights. If there is a (claimed) error, there must be a process for investigating it promptly.
    You're missing my point. NO RECORD of the transaction is to be retained by the government. The system confirms the check with a code that is recorded on the 4473 form the buyer fills out. If there is any question about the check being performed, that form will have to be manually located.
    No..This rule is saying that the system can't be turned off--that is, to suspend gun sales--through deliberate action. That's also a reason for the 72 hour time limit I gave above.
    I might budge on transferring, but loaning firearms to close family I will not (though I might negotiate on the time frame for a loan).
    What do you mean? If someone got into, say, a domestic disturbance but was NOT arrested, are you saying (1) that they're totally barred for some period or that (2) there's a time limit how long that can be held against them?
    I've no problem with it. I'd even allow a reasonable requirement for training.
    Most false statement cases involve a slap on the wrist, if anything. Here, a false statement may be used to strip someone of their rights. Gotta be a big penalty for lying here or no deal.
    I assure you, red flag laws do entail taking people's guns.
    You're not treating the accused fairly. We're not talking about someone charged with a crime (that's handled the normal way). We're talking about someone whose rights are suppressed and property confiscated without getting their day in court. The matter must be dealt with immediately.

    If the courts have to handle these cases immediately, there's a disincentive to pursuing these frivolously (other cases will get delayed).
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2022
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  24. Steal Your Face

    Steal Your Face Anti-Federalist

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    Sounds like a Monty Python sketch.
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  25. Jenee

    Jenee Driver 8

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    This is getting too long and involved to respond to on my ipad and … I’ve already taken my sleep medication. So, I’ll respond to each point tomorrow.
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  26. Fisherman's Worf

    Fisherman's Worf I am the Seaman, I am the Walrus, Qu-Qu-Qapla'!

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    Reinstitute the assault weapons ban. Actual background checks and waiting periods. No fucking gun show loopholes. Mandatory gun safety training, which should be more than just a meaningless checkbox to tick. Mandatory liability insurance.
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  27. Fisherman's Worf

    Fisherman's Worf I am the Seaman, I am the Walrus, Qu-Qu-Qapla'!

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    Jesus. @Paladin and @Uncle Albert are so brainwashed and reality-impaired on this subject, it's not worth engaging with them. They're going to die clinging to their guns, alone, cold, and with their underwear full of an involuntary shit. The only redemption either of them will have is as fertilizer for this dying planet.

    Even if @Federal Farmer might a little disingenuous, he at least doesn't appear to have fallen off the deep end.
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  28. Steal Your Face

    Steal Your Face Anti-Federalist

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    1. What do you mean by actual background checks? Is it something that @Paladin described or something else?
    2.explain gun show loopholes.
    3. I’m going to bite bullet (pun kind of intended) explain to me like an actual 12 year old the liability thing, please.
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  29. Fisherman's Worf

    Fisherman's Worf I am the Seaman, I am the Walrus, Qu-Qu-Qapla'!

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    It's late for me, but I promise to respond to you tomorrow. And if I don't, tag/quote me to bug me in case I forgot.
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  30. Jenee

    Jenee Driver 8

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    Be that as it may, one man attempted to put a bomb on his shoe and get on a plane, now millions of people every day are forced to remove their shoes before getting on a plane.


    3 days minimum.



    No, you can’t legislate that. That is a people management thing.



    Again, not something you can legislate.



    This is more of the previous two. You can’t legislate this kind of thing. Best that can happen is the person is taken to court for not doing their job – same with that county clerk in … Kentucky(?) that refused to grant marriage licenses to gays. Hey, you guys set the stage, now play your part.



    Demanding special treatment because you feel anything else is unacceptable is childish and insulting to others who feel their mistreatment is of paramount importance. No. You get the same treatment as any other American regarding their rights.



    This is moronic. If you don’t want anyone to know you bought a gun, don’t buy a gun. But, I can tell you, as someone who works with master data for all purchases and payments and sales, you can cry all you want, but there will be data stored. That’s just the way our world works. Privacy laws protect that data.



    This is more about people management. You can’t legislate that. But, if you feel there was human intervention in the process, you always have legal recourse.



    There may be room for negotiation here, but said gun owner would be legally responsible for all criminal actions taken by the person to whom you loaned your gun.



    Yes. Just because an arrest wasn’t issued doesn’t mean the aggressor wasn’t aggressive. Hell, just last year, police were called for a “domestic disturbance” against a guy who was traveling with his girlfriend. Cops believed him, didn’t believe her, let him go without an arrest and within 24 hours, he killed her. So, yes, even if someone is not arrested, they still have to wait. How long? I don’t know. That’s negotiable, I suppose.



    I do have a problem with it and most likely, most parents would as well. Also, don’t want anyone taking a gun to MY workplace. No, to quote Johnny Cash, leave your guns at home, son.



    A lot of rights are stripped with false accusations. Again, you’re asking for special treatment and it’s not happening. If you wish to change another law, you cannot do it through this one. Tackle that law separately.



    If a person’s guns need to be taken away, then they should be. You don’t get to shoot up a populace because you got angry then expect to keep your guns.



    EVERY court case must be dealt with immediately. It’s the framework of our legal system. You wait in line like everyone else.
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