Trans activists failing to persuade people on the sports issue

I presume both are biological females and that is the requirement needed for them to compete against one another, so it's fair in that sense

Also how do you know the Asian woman isn't some crazy ninja squirrel and awesome at volleyball?

I think I mentioned earlier in this thread about the trans boy Texas forced to compete in girls wrestling (that he won handily) and how they tried to twist *that* shit about him having robbed girls of scholarships or whatever other foolishness Texas was trying.

The cruelty was always the point.

Data:

Yet in all this, there has been scant detail about how Ms Thomas's performance actually compares to other women at her level. The Independent crunched the numbers – and found little evidence that she poses any threat to women's sport.
Ms Thomas began swimming at the age of five, and came out to her family in summer 2018. She began to use her new name Lia Catherine Thomas, on new year's day in 2020.
“In a way, it was sort of a rebirth," she told Sports Illustrated in an interview this year. "For the first time in my life, feeling fully connected to my name and who I am and living who I am."
It was May 2019 when she began gender-affirming hormone replacement therapy (HRT)
Both the NCAA and the Olympics allow trans women to compete in women's events once they have been on HRT for a certain length of time, and as long as tests show their testosterone is below certain levels. There are different rules for trans men, because their pre-HRT performance is similar to cis women and they tend to gain strength and muscle mass from HRT.
Opponents of trans women's inclusion argue that these changes are not enough to erase the natural advantages of growing up with testosterone. The scientific evidence is mixed, and post-HRT trans women do not currently dominate professional sport.
Ms Thomas skipped the 2020-21 swimming season, and so she has now been on HRT for nearly three years. According to Sports Illustrated, she lost strength and an inch of her height on HRT, making it impossible for her to match her performance.
So how does she perform as a swimmer today?
Let's look first at Ms Thomas's record in the NCAA. While some of her fastest times have been in other competitions, these are the easiest results to access and compare across multiple years and athletes.
All statistics in this article are for "short course yards" races, meaning they were done in a 25-yard pool.
Ms Thomas won the women's 500 yard freestyle race in 4m 33.24s. She came fifth in the 200 yard race, with 1m 43.40s, and eighth in the 100 yard race with 48.40s.
These were impressive results, but they weren't record-breaking. Though the overall competition saw 27 all-time NCAA records broken, Ms Thomas's times weren't among them.
A whopping 18 of those were broken by Kate Douglass of the University of Virginia (UVA), who now has the fastest times in US college history in the 50 yard freestyle, the 100 yard butterfly stroke, and the 200 yard breaststroke.
"It is easy to see how dominant Kate Douglass has become in the sport," wrote Swimming World. "Many dominant swimmers have had three titles, and even three records, in one meet. But no swimmer in NCAA women’s history has ever won three different strokes in a single meet that involve the breaststroke, let alone three records."
Other records were broken by Katherine Berkoff of North Carolina State University and Alex Walsh of UVA, as well as UVA's medley teams in several events.
According to an Independent search of women's records listed by USA Swimming, the US' national governing body for the sport, Ms Thomas's 500 yard time makes her the 15th fastest college swimmer, about nine seconds behind Katie Ledecky's record in 2017.

Her swimming times are on par with cis women
How do these times compare to other women in the top ranks of US college swimming?
The Independent compiled a dataset of swim times for all top 8 NCAA women's finishers over the last six years of competition in various events. 2020 was excluded because all NCAA championships were cancelled that year due to the pandemic.
In other words, this data only includes the absolute best college swimmers in these events. It goes back far enough to cover Katie Ledecky's 4m 24.06s record in the 500 yard race and Missy Franklin's 1m 38.10s record in the 200 yard race, both of which still stand today.
In this field, Ms Thomas's time in the 500 yards is the eighth fastest out of 56.
In the 100 yard race, her time is 55th out of 56 in The Independent's data, and her time in the 200 yard race is the 31st out of 5. [seems to be a typo here]
Her 500 yard time of 4m 33.24 is just above the average (4m 36.07s), while her 100 yard time of 48.18s is just below average (47.06s), as is her 200 yard time of 1m 43.24s (compared to 1m42.85).
The Independent also looked at numbers for the 500 yard men's race, where Ms Thomas has competed at a high level in both men's and women's events, from 2015 to 2021. There, her finishing time is more than 20 seconds below the men's average.
How fast did Thomas swim before going on HRT?
Some critics of Ms Thomas' participation have pointed to her record before transitioning, when she competed in men's races, claiming that moving into the women's has improved her overall position.
According to a search of USA Swimming records, in the last season where Ms Thomas competed in men's events, she came in ninth across the entire country in the 1,000 yard freestyle and 29th in the 1,650 yard freestyle.
"Lia Thomas was an elite and competitive swimmer while on the men's team at the University of Pennsylvania," says Mr Sockwell. "[The 1650 yard] event would have had Lia in the top 30-34 in the country and right on the bubble of making NCAAs.”
Schuyler Bailar, the first openly trans swimmer in the NCAA men’s first division, who is now reportedly a friend and adviser to Ms Thomas, similarly wrote: “ Lia was absolutely a standout athlete when she was competing on the men’s team... it is far from abnormal or unlikely for an athlete to go from being ranked 11th to 1st in the span of a few years.”
Ms Hogshead-Makar also drew attention to the difference between Ms Thomas's pre-HRT times and her times today. Her best time in the 500 yards was 5.6 per cent slower than before transition, while her 1,000 yards time was 7.5 per cent slower and her 1,650 yards time was 7.2 per cent slower.
That is less than the 10 to 11 per cent gap Ms Hogshead-Makar says is usually found between men's and women's races. However, according to the LGBT sports news site OutSport, the difference in NCAA men and women's records varies by distance: 11.2 per cent for the 200 yards, 7.2 per cent for the 500 yards, and 6 per cent for the 1,650 yards.
It is also possible that Ms Thomas' old times do not represent how fast she'd swim if she had never begun HRT. They date from an earlier point in her evolution as a swimmer, and therefore would not reflect any improvements in her technique or mindset since then.
"This is our only real case study where a competitive male swimmer has transitioned to female and been very competitive as well," warns Mr Sockwell. "It's all very new."

Facts:

These statistics seem largely in line with those of trans athletes across the world. Although trans women have been allowed to compete in women's Olympics since 2004, none have won a medal.

Yet numbers can only tell us so much. Trans advocates argue that even if trans women were winning more competitions, that would not prove they had an unfair advantage, nor would it justify their exclusion from women's events.

Indeed, it would be strange to contend that trans women should only be allowed to compete in women's sports as long as they never win anything.

"This argument should never have to be made," said Mr Bailaron Instagram this week. "No one says a cis women is allowed to compete because she 'didn’t dominate.' They say 'wow, look how much Katie Ledecky wins by, she’s untouchable, that’s amazing!'

"This isn't to prove that trans women can't be great athletes, or win, or even dominate. It is to prove that people are lying to you in order to turn you against trans women athletes."

In a blog post, Mr Bailar also notes that exceptional athletes are often biologically unusual, from thelong-armedOlympic swimmer Michael Phelps to the intersex runner Caster Semenya, who has been subject to baseless claims that she is is secretly a trans woman and wasbarred from the Olympics unless she undergoes hormone therapy.

The average height of a top US women's basketball player is around 6ft,according to theWashington Post, with thetallest playerin 2022 being 6ft 9in. That is not only taller than theaverage American woman's heightof 5ft 4in but also the average man's height of 5ft 9in.

Describing Katie Ledecky, who is cis, Olympic champion swimmer Ryan Lochteeven said: “She swims like a guy. Her stroke, her mentality – she’s so strong in the water. I’ve never seen a female swimmer like that.”

Hence, trans advocates ask, why should a woman's gender history be treated differently from these other natural bodily variations, especially when trans women in top competitions are already required to regulate their hormones to stay in play?

That is a question statistics alone cannot answer.


Lia Thomas: Trans swimmer didn’t have unfair advantage, data shows | The Independent

You know it's funny, all the women in real life that I've talked to about this think it's unfair

All the men I talk to say "who gives a fuck about university chick swimming?"

Those girls will always be victims. Best to let them get used to it now.

This is what it is and has always been about. It has always been about abusing cis women for having the nerve to not be dainty little damsels and having the nerve to participate in sports. It has never been about trans women.

Strong athletic women are not feminine and therefor have always needed to be mocked and abused by men. This is not to mention the reality men want women segregated because most of them cannot compete and will get their asses ki9cked by a girl who actually practices. It sucks when obese, neckbeard, losers lose to a girl, and the out of shape gravy seals and their morbidly obese bubbas cannot play on the level of girls who train and practice.

It just does not happen that testosterone alone wins the game. This is the lie that the boymen tell themselves. It would be unfair for them to compete with girls because they would automatically beat them. It simply is not true. 70 percent of males are not even in the competition. If we let them compete with girls they would lose.

https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2021/07/two-cis-black-women-banned-olympics-natural-testosterone-levels/


Things are working just as those behind these policies intended.

The ‘wrong’ people are being excluded so the ‘white’ people have better odds of winning.

A whole lotta "gender critical" TERFs have ties to white supremacist groups and organizations so this is not surprising.

This only furthers the argument that T-regulation is no good or fair accomodation for trans athletes, and that natal sex should prevail in sports.

How does that resolve issues mentioned in post 489?

Bigotry is like cable packages.
Y'know "oh, you wanna watch "Outlander"? Then you have to take these 50 ESPNs too".
If they're one kind of bigot, they always hate women too.
It all comes together, like those ESPNs.
They're never just one, it's a whole package deal.

Here's a thought: apply actual scientific methodology

Form a hypothesis:
Those who experience male puberty will tend to have a natural advantage and generally dominate those who have not in athletic competition
(nevermind all the laws that ban such participation K-12 undermining the very premise from the jump)

Test the hypothesis:
Create policies which allow the sort of participation presumed to be problematic. Gather data until you have a significant sample.

(this has been done, for close to two decades, at all levels of competition from K-12 schools to olympic trials)

Analyze results:

review the accumulated data to see whether it demonstrates the hypothesis to be sound.

(it doesn't)

Revise conclusion.

Simple. Unbiased. Data reliant.
Doesn't support a bigoted response so....?

Outlander is awesome, that is all.

Congrats.


After a girl beat their daughters in sports, Utah parents triggered investigation into whether she was transgender

School opened girl’s enrollment records dating back to kindergarten to confirm she was female, Utah High School Activities Association representative tells legislators

https://www.deseret.com/utah/2022/8...stigates-female-athlete-transgender-complaint

Genital checks at every corner suck but at least we got… what? We got what out of this anti-trans anti-science bullshit?

Who is winning here except the cons that we’re able to weaponize folks ignorance/fear of new into a cultural wedge issue to distract from their pillaging of the nation?

Name me a winner that isn’t a billionaire.

The Giant Invisible Sky Fairy is smiling down, as he smiles down on all petty cruelty.
He's not The Devil though.
Don't let that thought creep into your mind.

who could have predicted this except every trans person not named Jenner

Wow never could have guessed that conservatives would demand genital testing of kids.

If I were that girl's mother, I'd have demanded the same be done for the girl who lost.

No, I'd want their parents tied to a chair, and to punch them in the head for a whole hour.
It's not fancy-shmancy, it's just what I'd want.

I guess I'm just not that angry or violent.

Not saying I'd go through with it, but it would certainly cross my mind.

Tony Perkins and the rest of the CNP

When are ciswomen going to realize trans hate is directly caused and related to sexism? You just agree you are less than men when you participate in the hatred of trans women and transmen. You have to insult and denigrate women when you hate on trans people because the sexist view that women are lesser than men is woven into the hate. That is the whole purpose of the trans hate. It tries to validate male superiority. It takes away the value of women as people.

It is not the only thing as almost every single religion is based on the same idea, but it is only for people to keep women down, and it is sick and part of the problem that women are convinced they are shit and participate in it.

kinda like this

Eli wasn't being anti-trans, by the way - she was pointing out the absurdity of right wingers popping off "What is a woman?" without being able to answer it themselves. But Christan gets to the heart of the built in misogyny of anti-trans activism.

This.
https://twitter.com/lbc/status/1561278236016918528?s=21&t=4USOGiCmwTv_zqcQ0Qih4Q

I liked that exchange a good bit but there's also another, somewhat more direct, response:

Caitlyn Jenner. Elite athlete in youth and young adulthood, considerable golf competition before transition...played a lot of golf in women's tournaments after... How did she fare?

Golf is one of the sports where accuracy and finesse are much more important than being able to wack the ball a few extra yards. Back when I used to play I would shame people while never using a driver because I was so out of control with a wood that the distance did not help me shave strokes. My grandparents liked playing together because they both were very similar in skill and it was a competition.

OTOH golfing is also not fitness athletic at all. It is the game old people are told to play when their bodies cannot do any other game. It is better than nothing but even shuffling old people with hunchbacks who cannot walk a mile can do it as long as you have a cart and some time. I could still golf when I couldn't walk across walmart without wheezing and sitting down. I could not Bowl and play Billiards but I could still golf.