The Federalist: Federalism and the Constitution are bad. And Fascism is necessary.

Discussion in 'The Red Room' started by Ancalagon, Jul 29, 2022.

  1. Raoul the Red Shirt

    Raoul the Red Shirt Professional bullseye

    Joined:
    May 3, 2004
    Messages:
    12,936
    Ratings:
    +10,700
    It's not about technology so much as mindset. Yes, one can e-mail the president/Congress just as easily as a governor/state rep. And one could envision a federal system where the capacity to process every request on every issue was enhanced to the point where the federal government is processing them at about the same rate as the present government.

    But none of that suggests that Washington would necessarily be able to determine what's best for, say, Alabama in isolation as well as Alabama is, or able to counterbalance the needs of Alabama versus Illinois vs. California vs. Nebraska. I don't think it is dated at all to suggest that having an Alabama-only form of government to determine issues that are Alabama-only or primary in addition to a federal government probably will result in better overall outcomes for Alabama residents than only a federal government.

    There's no question that the federal government fills in a lot of cracks that the state governments fail to do.

    But the question was why do we even need state governments, and I think it's reasonable to respond because they are going to do a better job handling state-only issues than a federal-only government will, and because the laboratory of ideas will produce better solutions in the long-run than a centrally devised one (even if both those responses are debatable.)
    • Agree Agree x 1
  2. Jenee

    Jenee Driver 8

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2008
    Messages:
    25,340
    Location:
    On the train
    Ratings:
    +19,334
    Can you provide some "state only" type of issues?
  3. Order2Chaos

    Order2Chaos Ultimate... Immortal Administrator

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2004
    Messages:
    25,186
    Location:
    here there be dragons
    Ratings:
    +21,380
    Infrastructure inspection and maintenance frequency (eg, it's a waste of money and labor to inspect bridges in places where roads aren't salted in the winter as often as in places they are), agricultural inspections, speed limits, most taxes as to form and amount, pet control, pest control, building codes, school schedules, trash and water reclamation policies, suburban development, new sub-freeway road alignment, land use policies in general, minimum wages above the federal.
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Winner Winner x 1
  4. Jenee

    Jenee Driver 8

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2008
    Messages:
    25,340
    Location:
    On the train
    Ratings:
    +19,334
    I believe schools should be maintained and financed at a federal level rather than local so as to make funding evenly distributed rather than relying on the financial brackets of the local population. Other than that, I think many states, then, need to be much smaller. Heck, just the environmental differences between Chicago and the surrounding suburbs are massive. So .., that really doesn't answer my question. What could Wisconsin require that Illinois would not? I mean, literally people living across the street could have an entirely different set of laws.
  5. Raoul the Red Shirt

    Raoul the Red Shirt Professional bullseye

    Joined:
    May 3, 2004
    Messages:
    12,936
    Ratings:
    +10,700
    Any issue could have a particularized spin within a state or a smaller geographical subdivision such that it would make decision making at the federal level too unwieldy or unreflective of what the locals might want/need. Whether the subject is how/what children are taught in school, what forms of behavior should be considered crimes and how they should be punished, what credentials it takes to run and maintain a business, or pretty much any other thing you might think of, people in one state may have very different ideas from people in another state.

    While it makes sense for there to be national guidelines to these things, the argument is that individual states should be free to do more than those guidelines in some situations and less in others.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. Steal Your Face

    Steal Your Face Anti-Federalist

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2013
    Messages:
    47,416
    Ratings:
    +31,475
    I find it very disturbing that @Jenee doesn't understand any of these points being brought up and it confirms my thoughts that the left doesn’t occupy the same reality that the rest of us do.
    • Facepalm Facepalm x 2
  7. Jenee

    Jenee Driver 8

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2008
    Messages:
    25,340
    Location:
    On the train
    Ratings:
    +19,334
    Just because I corrected you in another thread you shouldn't assume you are correct in another. In fact, it's much more likely you're incorrect again.

    I am actively seeking information here whereas you prefer to wallow in your ignorance.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. Steal Your Face

    Steal Your Face Anti-Federalist

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2013
    Messages:
    47,416
    Ratings:
    +31,475
    Self proclaimed victory? That’s Dicky’s thing, don’t ever go full Dicky.
  9. Jenee

    Jenee Driver 8

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2008
    Messages:
    25,340
    Location:
    On the train
    Ratings:
    +19,334
    Asking questions is self proclaimed victory?

    No wonder you constantly stumble over yourself in your own ignorance.
    • Agree Agree x 2
  10. Steal Your Face

    Steal Your Face Anti-Federalist

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2013
    Messages:
    47,416
    Ratings:
    +31,475
    Generally speaking he was against military intervention overseas and for bringing most, if not all troops home and taking a more isolationist stance on foreign policy while also being in favor of opening up more free trade worldwide. He wanted to go back to some form of a gold standard. Eliminate alphabet agencies, most notably the Federal Reserve. He was in favor of more charter schools. He wanted to eliminate the sales tax. That’s just a few off of the top of my head.
  11. Jenee

    Jenee Driver 8

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2008
    Messages:
    25,340
    Location:
    On the train
    Ratings:
    +19,334
    You'll have to help me understand why you think "the gold standard" is a better path forward.

    Eliminating government agencies for the sake of eliminating agencies is moronic. Which agencies would you like to eliminate and why?

    Charter schools will only increase the gap between the working class and the elite. Why do you think that would be a good idea?

    Eliminating sales tax is a great campaign promise, but how would you intend to pay the bills that that tax currently pay
    • Agree Agree x 1
  12. Raoul the Red Shirt

    Raoul the Red Shirt Professional bullseye

    Joined:
    May 3, 2004
    Messages:
    12,936
    Ratings:
    +10,700
    Even if we were to accept that Jenee doesn't understand these things, it's in no way shape or form to extrapolate from what one person does or doesn't understand to an entire political movement, let alone that it "doesn't occupy the same reality that the rest of us do."

    It's a perfectly reasonable position to take that we would be better off if there were not separate state governments and that there was a nationwide standard for most things. Holding that belief isn't a sign that someone isn't in the same reality.
    • Agree Agree x 4
  13. Ancalagon

    Ancalagon Scalawag Administrator Formerly Important

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2004
    Messages:
    51,347
    Location:
    Downtown
    Ratings:
    +57,473
    I think there is a little bit of a false conflation here.

    You can have Federalism without an Electoral College. In fact the vast VAST majority of Federalist countries don’t have an EC. Some (Germany and Switzerland for example) have stronger Federalism and no EC.

    I fact the Federalist is arguing AGAINST Federalism in order to preserve the EC.
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • popcorn popcorn x 1
  14. tafkats

    tafkats scream not working because space make deaf Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2004
    Messages:
    24,904
    Location:
    Sunnydale
    Ratings:
    +50,916
    I like the funding equality part of that. Not so fond of the possibility that states that are actually willing to invest in education would find themselves dragged down by Alabama, Wyoming, et. al.

    Perhaps, but this can also be addressed by devolving some topics even further, to the county or municipality level. Things like noise ordinances and parking regulations will vary immensely between urban and rural areas, but they don't need to be dealt with at the state level anyway.

    True, but an inevitable consequence of the fact that if you're going to have political subdivisions at all, there have to be borders. It's like buying tickets for a concert ... is there really a $20 difference between the $99 ticket in Row L and the $79 ticket in Row M? Probably not, but the line has to exist somewhere.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  15. Spaceturkey

    Spaceturkey i can see my house

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2004
    Messages:
    30,373
    Ratings:
    +33,617
    opening up free trade?
    is that why they're called the "Trump Tariffs"?
    • popcorn popcorn x 2
  16. tafkats

    tafkats scream not working because space make deaf Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2004
    Messages:
    24,904
    Location:
    Sunnydale
    Ratings:
    +50,916
    I hope so. I'm basically an Elizabeth Warren Democrat. Or a Kamala Harris Democrat (which, despite all that "Kamala is a cop" BS during the primaries, is basically the same thing).
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Winner Winner x 1
  17. Bailey

    Bailey It's always Christmas Eve Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2004
    Messages:
    27,084
    Location:
    Adelaide, South Australia
    Ratings:
    +39,486
    You won't have much disagreement that you inhabit your own special reality.
    • Winner Winner x 5
    • Agree Agree x 1
  18. Spaceturkey

    Spaceturkey i can see my house

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2004
    Messages:
    30,373
    Ratings:
    +33,617
    yeah.. his whole "rest of us" thing is kinda like those million people at Trump's inauguration that warm, sunny day.
    • Funny Funny x 5
    • Agree Agree x 2
  19. Steal Your Face

    Steal Your Face Anti-Federalist

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2013
    Messages:
    47,416
    Ratings:
    +31,475
    Whatchutalkinbout Willis?
  20. Spaceturkey

    Spaceturkey i can see my house

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2004
    Messages:
    30,373
    Ratings:
    +33,617
    google
  21. Spaceturkey

    Spaceturkey i can see my house

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2004
    Messages:
    30,373
    Ratings:
    +33,617
    charter schools... sounds kind of separate but also unequal.
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  22. Nova

    Nova livin on the edge of the ledge Writer

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2004
    Messages:
    49,065
    Ratings:
    +37,193
    Wait until you hear about the MS legislature creating a 1-to-1 tax credit for anyone who donates their money to private (i.e. mostly seg academies) ...basically using "potential" state revenue to fund directly private schools who aren't bound by the rules of public schools.
    • Angry Angry x 1
    • Sad Sad x 1
  23. Fisherman's Worf

    Fisherman's Worf I am the Seaman, I am the Walrus, Qu-Qu-Qapla'!

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2004
    Messages:
    30,562
    Ratings:
    +42,878
    I'm sure the rest of the class would love to hear your understanding of these topics.
    • popcorn popcorn x 3
    • Winner Winner x 1
  24. Spaceturkey

    Spaceturkey i can see my house

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2004
    Messages:
    30,373
    Ratings:
    +33,617
    he's been pretty consistent with support for trickle down and the hereditary nobility it creates..
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  25. TheLonelySquire

    TheLonelySquire Fresh Meat

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2008
    Messages:
    8,111
    Ratings:
    +3,933
    1. Government shouldn't be in the marriage business at all. For anyone. Civil unions are a good alternative for these folks since they can never be married from a Biblically moral standpoint.

    2. Being reduced to an incubator is a far better alternative than having a child's limbs and organs ripped apart for the sake of convenience.
    • Dumb Dumb x 3
  26. Bailey

    Bailey It's always Christmas Eve Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2004
    Messages:
    27,084
    Location:
    Adelaide, South Australia
    Ratings:
    +39,486
    Christians didn't invent marriage. :)
    • Winner Winner x 6
    • Agree Agree x 4
  27. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

    Joined:
    May 5, 2004
    Messages:
    23,266
    Ratings:
    +22,264
    Let alone there are more than just Christians in America. Saying you can't be married because Christians don't want you to get married is just another flavor of their theofascism.
    • Winner Winner x 7
    • Agree Agree x 4
  28. Spaceturkey

    Spaceturkey i can see my house

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2004
    Messages:
    30,373
    Ratings:
    +33,617
    here we recently had the opposite. Our provincial gov't managed to once again water down the voting choices at the municipal level for Toronto by cutting city council in half and making those districts the same as federal and provincial voting districts. IOW, running for city council requires outreach to an average 100K constituents... only the wealthiest can afford to campaign (no party backing in local politics).

    And of course we have historic have-nots that once they have something refuse to pay back into the system. Oil in Alberta or offshore of the maritime provinces, for instance. Before a natural resource boom, these places were only too happy to take money from commercial/industrial centers where people actually live.
    • popcorn popcorn x 1
  29. Spaceturkey

    Spaceturkey i can see my house

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2004
    Messages:
    30,373
    Ratings:
    +33,617
    just sayin'

    much like we've come a million miles since matchlocks and muskets, urban metropoli are often more populous than the state/province surrounding them. almost half of Ontario lives within this 100km radius. Nearly 50 times the province of PEI and 25% bigger, but with only 1/5 the political representation per person
    [​IMG]
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2022
    • popcorn popcorn x 1
  30. Jenee

    Jenee Driver 8

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2008
    Messages:
    25,340
    Location:
    On the train
    Ratings:
    +19,334
    Shut up.