It’s never coming home - oil autocracy/slave labor edition

Discussion in 'The Red Room' started by Ancalagon, Apr 1, 2022.

  1. Spaceturkey

    Spaceturkey i can see my house

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    and Anc :P who brought it up in the first place (Demiurge :P)
    hardly jingoistic to remind him of his erroneous perceptions.
  2. MikeH92467

    MikeH92467 RadioNinja

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    The War of 1812 was a loss in any tactical sense you want to name, aside from the post-war Battle of New Orleans, but strategically it secured the Ante Bellum U.S. borders, put an end to British impressment of American sailors and ended (overt) British support of Native Americans in their resistance to US expansionist policies. It was stupid, ill-advised and damn near bankrupted the American economy (all of which gets either soft-pedaled or outright ignored in most pre-college history courses) but there were some strategic positives for the U.S. Pointing out those positives does not = claiming outright victory. :spock:
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  3. Ancalagon

    Ancalagon Scalawag Administrator Formerly Important

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    Vive la France! :frog: :frog: :frog:
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  4. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    Dude, he said it was a draw. You twitched and started talking shit. :)

    Both sides had victories and losses, no land changed hands, the US defeated the last British attack on New Orleans that was conducted after the peace treaty was signed, with the US having 71 casualties and the Brits over 2000. I'd say that was a pretty successful battle for us Yanks.

    And for all its talk of Britain being anti-slavery, they sure had no problem seizing nearly 5000 US ships and enslaving over 15,000 American citizens to fight in their navy from 1805-1812. And if you don't think it was slavery, try reading up on British naval tradition and how they handled their own sailors and citizens.

    And the British ally Spain did lose land to the US, including, IIRC, the area where Anc is from. The land that would later become Mobile, AL and parts of Baton Rouge territory.

    No doubt Canadian historians wax poetic about little Canada facing off against the US, but in fact Canada was part of the largest empire the world had ever known. Funny how you guys always overlook stuff like that.

    But I guess it gives your teachers something to talk about other than the Plains of Abraham. :D
  5. Bickendan

    Bickendan Custom Title Administrator Faceless Mook Writer

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    It might have been a draw, but so was the battle between Arthur and the Black Knight. :ramen:
  6. Spaceturkey

    Spaceturkey i can see my house

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    well, he said a tie equals a win if ya wanna be precise.

    and "twitched"?

    "a tie is being generous (although you guys tend to rely on many generous interpretations when discussing the war of 1812). For all the shots taken, y'all never did score any points against an opponent that thought it was little more than an exhibition game against their farm team." is "twitching"?

    Specifically, we were a tiny part of the largest empire ever known that they didn't particularly care about, let alone send any significant reinforcement to before Napoleon went down.

    We look at the war as a win because the goal was not to be assimilated into the US, and it was achieved despite the Brits finally showing up to "help". Is there a qualitative difference between impressment and forced repatriation? A lot of UEL's in Upper Canada around that time.

    ANyways, speaking of paying to much to accomplish little... the Battle of York and the order of battle.


    Sorry that me and Anc's ribbing each other on this topic triggered you so. I know you guys learn 1812 as standing up to that bully John Bull.

    You're right though.. the US did achieve it's war aim of being able to displace and eventually exterminate the native peoples of those former colonial protectorates in the south and west of the Ohio Valley.
  7. Tuckerfan

    Tuckerfan BMF

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    Aren't you the guys that finally decided you needed to become an actual country because we had a small disagreement commonly called "the Civil War"? Seems that at one time you had enough sense to get your shit together because the meth lab you're living over had a small fire. Waiting to see what you guys do now, as that fire has broken out once again, and is almost certainly going to burn through your floorboards in the near future.
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  8. Spaceturkey

    Spaceturkey i can see my house

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    partly... it started a while before that after our own upper canada rebellion/bar brawl over a rising oligarchy ... that the meth lab had been storing oily rags near the space heaters didn't hurt though. THe idea petitioned for was called "responsible government" (ha!) which tried to avoid the problem of rotten boroughs/electoral college inequities in voter enfranchisement, among other design flaws of both westminster and washington.

    That said, we didn't really consider ourselves a country so much as a province of the British Empire after the British North America Act. If I remember rightly, it took another 50ish years before we negotiated a treaty on our own, and we didn't go to war independently until September 10, 1939 (waited for a week after Mama England declared). Hell, even our flag was unofficial/de facto until 1965 when we dumped the naval jack for the maple leaf. We weren't really a completely autonomous nation until 1982 and the Charter.

    Of course, that brought a whole bunch of new issues not unparalleled by the ante bellum era of the US, from culture to commerce. Quebec keeps threatening to leave over language rights, so we stream francophone immigration there and they just get plainly racist. Alberta for some reason thinks that resources in a commonwealth are theirs alone to profit from, despite the fact half of them are from the maritimes and the resources tend to be on or accessed through First Nations lands.
  9. Spaceturkey

    Spaceturkey i can see my house

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    interesting dissection of an American history book for kids...

  10. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    Yep. You do realize that absolutely no one mentioned Canada until your right eyelid started into convulsions. Talk about jingoism - you had to talk shit when you aren't even in the conversation! Jesus man, get a grip on yourself.

    There were 10,000 British troops in Canada at the time. Nearly 60,000 British soldiers would fight in the war of 1812 by the end.

    The US standing army in 1812 was 7,000 men, and that had doubled in size because of British aggression routinely seizing US ships, in the thousands. Both sides used mostly militia throughout the war. Even by the end of the war, the US army size was only 35,000. And this was the young US, only 18 of the states existed, the Louisiana Purchase was only 9 years old and barely explored.

    And no, forced repatriation isn't the same thing as impressment. Not even close. Let alone the fact that overwhelming majority of UEL's were 'later' UELs, who came for land and lower taxes, not because they were driven from the US.

    Britain routinely seized US sailors on the high seas, forced them to their service, routinely whipped and beat them, and even killed them if they refused to comply.

    Oh, so burning down your capital was not much? Unforced self-own. LOL. We did end up giving you back the sceptre of authority, the Parliamentary Mace, but that was after it was displayed in West Point for 122 years.

    BTW, I'd imagine almost no Americans know about that. The War of 1812 is indeed covered quite a bit differently down here, but it's incredibly unimportant in US history.

    Anc wasn't talking to you at all, Turkey. That's what is so fucking funny about this. LOL. He might have been talking shit to MattHunter, but I'm sure he was chortling when you started spasming. "War of 1812!" Canadian anthem plays. All true Canadians hearts grew three sizes that day. Anc - uh, I was talking about the Brits.

    Right, and the Canadians continued on driving out the natives to the Arctic circle, or do you think you are indigenous to the Vancouver region?

    And it's not like you were intentionally destroying their culture in religious schools that cared so little for their welfare that they later found mass unmarked graves of children's bodies as the atrocities continued well into the 20th century... oh wait, that's exactly what happened.

    I'm married into a Canadian family and have had repeated conversations with the extended group. Guess what - you guys are just as much captured by your propaganda as Americans are.

    And we just saw it in action. :D
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2022
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  11. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    My favorite Canadian family moment - when out of the blue one of the Canadian girls started ranting about how dare the US play up the hype about 'the Miracle on Ice.' Which, once again, no one was talking about. She wanted everyone down here to know about the Summit Series, where Canada defeated the Russians several years before. Which is great.

    Until you start looking into it, and find out that the Canadian did so by repeatedly hacking the star Soviet captain and their leading scorer with their sticks until they literally broke his ankle. Hockey thugs. LOL.

    And somehow none of them knew that Tim Horton, a star hockey player who started perhaps their most successful quick serve restaurant chain, died in a fiery car crash on the 405 after police were called on him. He was drunk, in possession of amphetamine, and had several other drugs in his system including a barbituate. The Canadian authorities refused to release any of this to the public and it didn't come out for over 3 decades.

    Now don't get me wrong, I like Canada just fine, and like most rational Americans I wish we'd put more into our healthcare system and less into our military. I might even retire up there, though my wife keeps thinking of reasons for us not to go.

    But everyone's shit stinks, and if you think yours smells like a waft of fresh lilac you are just setting yourselves up for a poke in the ribs. :D

    Now excuse me, I need a two four for the weekend and need to shop at Canadian Tire and the Bay for some Christmas gifts for when I go up to my home away from home in two weeks for Christmas. But at least I'll get my double double at Timmy's.
  12. Bailey

    Bailey It's always Christmas Eve Super Moderator

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    God I love how overly defensive Americans get. :smitten:
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  13. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    And I love how little Commonwealth countries stick together, despite the fact that no one was talking about them at all... like usual. ;)
  14. Tererune

    Tererune Troll princess and Magical Girl

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    just the ones who don't enjoy sucking some canadian bacon.
  15. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    You know what, I didn't see Anc's comment on the 'less burning of Toronto.' So yeah, he did start talking shit about Canada out of the blue. I skimmed that post and only read the two big graphics after that which were entirely about England. So I'm wrong about that.

    I have had Canadians go off on the War of 1812 for no apparent reason, but Anc gave them one this time, and that was my prejudices kicking in after that, not theirs.

    If I weren't American, I'd apologize. :)
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  16. We Are Borg

    We Are Borg Republican Democrat

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    Nice try, but we're on to your attempt to infiltrate our ranks.

    Hudson's Bay and Tim Horton's are no longer Canadian companies, and most Canucks that I know avoid them like the plague.

    Interesting how those companies went to complete shit when they were bought by Americans. :chris:
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  17. Spaceturkey

    Spaceturkey i can see my house

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    Dude, you are seriously projecting some issues here :/


    our capital at the time was a couple of taverns and a half finished fort with maybe 1000 residents. Seriously... I live maybe four city blocks from fort york. In 1812, this was still untouched wilderness that wouldn't be settled for another 15 years. A raid on Mayberry would've taken more planning. THe scale sucks, but this is maybe 2 miles of shoreline pictured.
    [​IMG]


    and yeah, we blew it up ourselves because again... kinda hopelessly outnumbered.

    95% of what you call "British troops" were militia or allied natives. Hardly top of the line regulars either. This was a posting one retired to/from.

    Not sure where you get "captured by propaganda" here when all I'm pointing out is that "a mere matter of marching" proved not to be the case in manifesting the american destiny northward... attempts to invade were like dying in the tutorial of a video game.

    I guess that's your "great victory" for Zeb Pike? Oh, wait...

    also, among your confusion... I think it's Ten that's from Van. I'm in the centre of Toronto (you could probably connect about 1/6 of my ancestry to a couple of First Nations{mixed maternal grandparents}, but it's aggregate so I've never felt entitlement to actual status.) Also not sure why you think residential schools are a major gotcha when contrasting mistreatment of First Nations in both countries? That sort of FedFar whataboutism is beneath you... :'(
  18. Spaceturkey

    Spaceturkey i can see my house

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    Dude, EVERYONE (at least in Canuckforge) knows about Tim Horton and his acid trip down the QEW (and it's the 401).

    THat was 70's hockey, as far as Henderson's behavior goes...

    Not sure where or why you think these canards are evidence of not thinking our (my?) shit stinks. About the only thing smug in our national identity is the comparative capacity for self reflection and humility... and it really only applies to America.
  19. Ten Lubak

    Ten Lubak Salty Dog

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    Well, yeah. Everyone knows that the only way to play Russians is by punching or preferably cross checking them in the mouth or giving them a nice fierce slash to the ankle or hands. Russian hockey players have no heart and cower like little puppies when they are physically challenged. As soon as you lay the body to them they become subservient

    Absolute legend :salute:
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2022
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  20. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    Yes, I'm quite aware of where you live, ST. :D Maybe that's why I pointed this particular episode out.

    And again, if you want the self-own, that's fine. Your legislative buildings were there, and one of the first libraries in Canada, and our Colonel felt so bad our militia seized your books that he sent them back.

    3-1, but OK. :D

    Well, no, you blew up your magazine as a trap as the US soldiers were forming up around the place. They hadn't entered yet. Killed the force commander Zebulon Pike and 37 other men. This is no doubt why the US forces burned down the Legislature afterwards.

    This is not accurate. There were 300 british regulars, mostly from the 8th (the King's) Regiment of Foot. There were 300 militia, and 50 natives at the battle.

    Again, there were more British regulars in Canada and the Maritimes (which of course are now Canada) than the US had regular army troops at the start of the war. Yes, the US militia significantly outnumbered the Canadian militia, but most of them were devoted to protecting the US. Between the US reliance on militia which have proven again and again to be only capable of defensive actions, the British interdiction of US supplies into Canada, and the superiority of the British commanders to the US especially in the first year of the war, it's no surprise that Britain was able to defend it's territory in Canada.

    The first year of the war, the US 'mighty' (snort) invasion was three pronged. One was led by a commander so ridiculous, William Hull, he was court martialed for incompetence and literally sentenced to death for cowardice when he turned over Detroit to the British while holding a superior force and not giving a fight. He was pardoned by Madison. The next the British regulars captured the US war plans on a ship on Lake Eerie, and the attack was canceled almost as it began. The final and by far largest was 6000 militia that literally rioted and refused to cross the border.

    1813 the US finally got its act together and achieved a series of victories, including naval battles on the Great Lakes and the two attacks on York. A series of raids by both sides happened, and yes, the US did have to defend itself against the mightiest navy the world had seen to that point and the British attacked and burned several American coastal areas.

    1814 the Brits surged their regular army troops to 50,000 and had a string of victories at the beginning of the year, including the burning of Washington DC. But by the end of the year even with main line troops from the Napoleonic war the US had their own string of victories, retaking Detroit, defending Baltimore from invasion, and after the peace treaty was concluded but was waiting to be signed the Brits attacked New Orleans and were defeated in the biggest victory of the war for either side

    You mean your conflating of politicians' words as opposed to the military realities, and thinking this proves something? And then saying 'attempts to invade were like dying in the tutorial of a video game.' Why, I couldn't possibly understand how perhaps that is a highly slanted jingoistic interpretation of the war, especially when the US was also defending itself from the greatest empire in the world with the most dominant navy in history at that time. LOL. And again, the only side that gained territory from the war was the US. And the Brits stopped impressing our sailors after this - which was the major war aim of the US and in the declaration of war 2/3rds of the text was devoted to that issue.

    More than one thing can be true. Yes, Canada defended itself from US attack, even if perhaps our least militarily competent ex-POTUS ever stated that it was a 'mere matter of marching.' Jefferson was accused of cowardice in Virginia for his fleeing in the face of the enemy as Governor without even calling up the militia in the American Revolution, and was trying to live that down the rest of his life.

    But also true, the US gained both territory and its major political aim of the war, and after that the US, Canada, and Britain had an extensive run of peaceful relations. Hey, I've crossed the Peace Bridge too - the world's longest undefended border.

    Again, I'm well aware of where you live, ST. You've posted about it many times.

    My point with Vancouver was Canada too didn't particularly care about the Indigenous natives until it reached its own manifest destiny of the Pacific. By 1921 only 2% of the inhabitant of the prairies were indigenous. Charter schools were established to destroy their culture and way of life - and yes, that was explicitly the point. Buffalo were slaughtered until the natives food supply was destroyed and they were forced to assimilate. Treaties were routinely manipulated in favor of the colonists, as the First Nations had an oral tradition and Canadian lawyers claimed only written words were documented and therefore valid. The natives didn't have any sense of land ownership and signed treaty after treaty that the First Nations thought meant they were sharing the land, when the Canadians meant they were taking it. Sound familiar? It should. Canada too has been accused - and rightfully so - of conducting a genocide against it's indigenous people, and certainly it's intention to destroy the culture qualifies that under the Geneva conventions.

    This was all planned at the Charlottetown and Quebec Conferences, where an expansionist Canada decided that the indigenous population would not be a major issue to settlement. Indeed, Canadian settlers were largely driven by free land once owned by the natives - free because the Canadians took it for nothing and therefore could give it away for nothing. Again, sounds pretty familiar.

    Of course the US has it's own horrible history, and yes, I'd concede it's worse, but Canada shouldn't be pointing any fingers. It like every other commonwealth country is a colonizer sitting on stolen land that intentionally tried to destroy the native people there. Just like the US.
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  21. Spaceturkey

    Spaceturkey i can see my house

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    see, that's where ya keep getting it wrong. I'm not disputing any of those facts... only the importance of them.

    is pretty much what I said here.


    I could maybe make it into a football analogy involving fumbling the kick off and the opponent scoring?


    speaking of fumbles-
    you see why I needed to clarify? that response of yours kind of splits off from addressing the population to addressing an individual.


    Pretty sure I never suggested otherwise about our own shitty history-that was all you projecting it on to me.

    although yeah, I mention living where I do as often as I do because it makes a great counterpoint to idiots like UA who think that guns equal safety (among other contrasts in the quality of urban living between the two countries).
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2022
  22. Ancalagon

    Ancalagon Scalawag Administrator Formerly Important

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    Say what you will about the venue but at least the officiating has been top notch.
  23. Ancalagon

    Ancalagon Scalawag Administrator Formerly Important

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    One the plus side if I have done my land nav and ballistic trajectories correctly then Harry Kane’s PK should be coming home (well somewhere around Worthing actually) in around 10 minutes.
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2022
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  24. MikeH92467

    MikeH92467 RadioNinja

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    A large part of England is on suicide watch. :bergman:
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  25. Tuckerfan

    Tuckerfan BMF

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  26. Tuckerfan

    Tuckerfan BMF

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    3A2BF640-FB46-4A30-A171-A3A900414E05.jpeg

    :corn:
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  27. MikeH92467

    MikeH92467 RadioNinja

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    On the bright side our past experience shows that the majority of idiots who refuse to take basic disease protections are Republicans... :bergman:

    ETA: there are also rumors that Grant Wahl might have been killed after wearing an "offensive" (to the local Q'ran thumpers) shirt supporting LGBTQ rights. :chris:
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  28. Tuckerfan

    Tuckerfan BMF

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    Aortic aneurysm, it seems.

    https://fox4kc.com/health/kc-area-h...gers-of-an-aortic-aneurysm-how-to-prevent-it/
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  29. MikeH92467

    MikeH92467 RadioNinja

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    That’s what “they” want you to think. :calli:
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  30. We Are Borg

    We Are Borg Republican Democrat

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    So is anyone surprised that the country that harboured Nazis from WW2 won the World Cup in a country that's full of terrorists with no regard for human rights?
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