Poor? Homeless? Have you considered dying?

Discussion in 'The Red Room' started by Amaris, May 18, 2023.

  1. 14thDoctor

    14thDoctor Oi

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    1. Goalposts much? First you were talking about the poor receiving MAID by virtue of being poor (which isn't actually a thing), now you've switched to talking about MAID for the disabled.

    2. Yeah, disabled people don't tend to get a whole lot of money. Most people that can't work aren't showered with cash. That's generally a provincial matter, and an entirely different topic.

    3. The Alan Nichols case is bullshit. His family neglects him, finds out he's in the hospital in bad shape, ignores him for a month, finds out he's receiving MAID, then tries to claim something fishy happened? Never mind that his death certificate listed three “antecedent causes” connected to his death including a stroke and seizure disorder.

    4. I'll ignore the thinly veiled insults you threw out there, because it's my Friday and I'd like to relax.
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  2. Amaris

    Amaris Witch of Winter

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    I threw no insults, and I haven't moved any goalposts. Just say you don't want to discuss it if you don't want to discuss it.
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  3. Tererune

    Tererune Troll princess and Magical Girl

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    You do not have to live other people's lives. The world is not going to help them. Some pain is not going away and healing.

    There is no dignity in suffering because others cannot stomach suicide. Stop trying to force others into this world to live out pain you do not need to by making it hard for them to get out easier. The world has enough people to get by and no one is saving it by putting up with another day of severe pain just so some person thousands of miles away who cannot and won't help them thinks that suicide makes them sad.

    You do not have to live their life. You cannot take away their pain. You cannot make the world a better place.

    They have to live their lives with whatever circumstances the world dealt them. If it is not worth it to them that is their choice and judgment for themselves. Stop making it difficult for them to leave so you feel more comfortable.
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  4. Amaris

    Amaris Witch of Winter

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    I won't let someone die because they didn't have enough money to eat, have shelter, or get their medicine. That is a systemic failure. That is a failure of a culture, of a society. Letting people die because it's easier than feeding them, clothing them, giving them what they need to sustain themselves is morally and ethically barbaric. If someone wants to make an informed decision to end their life because they are terminally ill, and suffering because of it, that is one thing, but because they can't afford their basic needs? That is the failure of the system itself. People dying to make things a little more convenient for the people at the top while they exploit everyone else is inexcusable. That is what needs to change, and it can be changed.
  5. Tererune

    Tererune Troll princess and Magical Girl

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    That is the thing about accepting reality. I believe a lot of what you do about people having a base level of living that provides them with more than just shitty food and shelter in a poverty ridden slum. I will fight for that cause, but we are not winning. We are not even close with TANF, SNAP, and section 8 housing. we are not even getting close in the near future when you have a cruel and shitty ass like Biden as the progressive extreme left.

    Even if we had that I have watched 4 elderly grandparents die with the best of care. Every one of them except for the one that died within a couple of days from an untreatable hospital infection begged to die. They lived a good life, but the emotional pain and humiliation of age was horrible and only going to get worse. I watched a good friend recover from liver failure to die a destitute life where it was humiliating for him to leave the house because of the ravages of the disease. I would get him out to a restaurant and we would eat a meal he loved, and then before he could strep outside he would vomit on the table. That was humiliating and he did not want to leave the house anymore because of stuff like that.

    You cannot take away some of these things. That is not even including trans kids and gay kids who are trapped in an area of hate or just being a freak who do not have the desire to spend the rest of their life only getting partially to a cosmetic point where they might pass. Maybe that is just not good enough for them. There are a ton of stories of trans people who go through huge physical harm and self destruction and are a lot worse than me on the gender dysphoria scale. If they cannot take it, then don't. I do not have to live with their pain, and I cannot make the world or their body better.

    If this world was a better place I would agree with you, but it isn't. It is not going to be better in the near future no matter how much is right or wrong morally about it. When I look at it I do not even see humans as the problem. It is the nature of this world. Nature is not kind. Nature is not fair. Nature is cruel and horrible from the virus to the human race. Human decency is a human idea and not a natural fact. Rape is a natural quality that allows a male to pass on it's genes by forcefully beating every other male and unwillingly impregnate a female who's body unwillingly produces attractive chemicals telling every rapey male in the vicinity it is time to hold her down and ram it in. not all animals do it this way, but the ones we come from do it like rapists.

    We did not come from some wonderful place. We were born trapped in a body on a planet of cruelty. If someone wants to give that shit up I am for making it nice and easy.
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  6. Uncle Albert

    Uncle Albert Part beard. Part machine.

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    "!"

    Who are you, and which closet has 14thDoctor tied up with a tube sock stuffed in his mouth?
    :chris:
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  7. Jenee

    Jenee Driver 8

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    that’s not entirely true either. Look at trump. By all accounts he is just as you describe. But, because he’d been born into a wealthy family, despite all that, he still isn’t poor.

    And, much like the Right does, you’re oversimplifying causes of poverty whilst blaming the victim.

    I’m not disputing your point, but it is eversomuchmore convoluted than that.
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  8. Spaceturkey

    Spaceturkey i can see my house

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    you missed the part of the article that spoke of MaiD as being pretty much a moderate position in this country? 51% in support.

    I'd think you'd be all aggrieved. The government regulating(and funding!!!) death or something rather than leaving it to folks to choose to hang themselves by their own bootstraps and consequence to others be damned.
  9. Tererune

    Tererune Troll princess and Magical Girl

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    @Amaris sorry for getting snippy, but the assisted suicide to end the pain thing is something that ends up bugging me.

    Despite my reputation around here I have traveled around and have been there for so many people who have been on that path. I have watched people judge them so harshly. Just the idea that suicide is negative is a concept that pushed the suicidal away and makes them feel worse about themselves. Yes, you care about them and your desire is to help, but every portrayal of negativity about the thought of suicide hurts the person who is suicidal and makes a wall between you and them. The only place that can take the time to break that wall is an institution that can watch the person and keep them from self harm while they treat them.

    Any judgment hurts. Your home could be a pile of garbage and shit with bugs all through it and I will go in and sit with you. You could be morbidly obese and I do not give a fuck. You are covered in burns others find disgusting, I do not care.

    When a person is hurting to the point the ideas of killing themselves enter their minds it is not time for judgment and telling them all about how great life is. You have to remind them of those things without pushing against the part of them that is rejecting those very things in an effort to disconnect from the joy. You have to recognize those good events may be poisonous and creating resentment over their present painful condition. They are already fighting that battle in their head, and it is hurting them.

    When you enter into helping someone who is really suicidal you have got to be committed for that time because if you give up then you are another huge brick on that camel's back. You are the closes and biggest failure of the moment if you have to leave or cannot finish. If you go into the break you have to be there to rebuild them especially if you opened the wound and took down their defenses against their pain.

    Oh, and another fun point. When you do help someone break down and rebuild in a non-professional environment that will fuck your future relationships with them. You have to let them go onto their lives and understand you become an uncomfortable and possibly dangerous reminder of the past. They are not your friend anymore, because you are no longer equal. Not everyone can be happy for others being happy without them. Most people cannot repay that sort of help.
  10. Amaris

    Amaris Witch of Winter

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    It's fine, this is a sensitive subject for a lot of people. My biggest concern is coercion. If someone is genuinely unhappy in life to the point where every day is suffering, and that suffering is caused by something beyond our control as a society to fix it (like terminal cancer, for example), then I am 100% for euthanasia. The reason my sticking point is on coercion is because it's not that difficult to see programs like this opening up and becoming more permissive for societal ills we *can* fix.

    Terminal cancer? Yes. Euthanasia should be an option. Homelessness? No. Poverty? No. If you're so desperate to have shelter that you've considered suicide to just end the day to day suffering, then we should just give you a home. You should be given food. You should be given medication to live. End of story. Things like that.

    The system in which we live, capitalism in particular, is coercive. Your choice is either to work yourself to death or die, and some people would choose die because if their work leads to nothing, or if they can't work, what choice do they have?

    They should have choices, and not be lead down one particular path because it makes things easier on the system if those who aren't producing profit can be swept away as if their lives have no meaning.
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  11. Shirogayne

    Shirogayne Gay™ Formerly Important

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    I've been hearing this from Canadians on Twitter for months now.

    It's sadly true :(
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  12. Shirogayne

    Shirogayne Gay™ Formerly Important

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    Re: #3, I don't disagree in a vacuum but if we have otherwise healthy people down on their luck being offered MAiD as a solution to being homeless, as a number of Canadians have been offered, it seems like we've truly fucked up here.
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  13. 14thDoctor

    14thDoctor Oi

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    Are you referring to the one asshole government employee that worked for the Veterans Affairs call centre that sarcastically suggested MAiD to callers that annoyed them? Because MAiD offered solely for homelessness isn't a thing in Canada. :shrug:
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  14. Shirogayne

    Shirogayne Gay™ Formerly Important

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    I'm referring to actual Canadians with less than 1500 followers that have come across my Twitter TL who have mentioned this, along with disability activists who have pointed this out. I can't speak to whatever shit the right is co-opting for their own means.

    This clip of an interview was posted six months ago, I dunno if it's the same guy you're referring to but the fact that the Daily Fail reported on it makes it seem sus:

    https://twitter.com/Koba_Gold/status/1599247193688662017?t=S_aMJgIb5HsoiSmIfkdmKw&s=19

    A lot of what I've seen in the wild were more stories like this, which is pretty fucked up too:

    https://twitter.com/BrvHrt09/status/1556059896080175106?t=PAaOgz2kLzHTn_CrrgIPgQ&s=19
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  15. Shirogayne

    Shirogayne Gay™ Formerly Important

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    Look, I disagree w Doc on this but he's still coming in better faith than you ever will :muad2:
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  16. 14thDoctor

    14thDoctor Oi

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    Okay, fuck this guy. Fuck this guy right in the ass. He is requesting to die, not being encouraged to do so, but actively requesting it, and because he meets the current criteria due to chronic pain his primary doctor had to sign off on the request. Then he goes on television and says he really just wants a new inexpensive place to live or more money, otherwise he's going to exploit a loophole in the system and kill himself.

    That's not the government trying to kill a poor disabled person, that's a poor disabled person being an asshole and using the threat of suicide to beg for money. It looks like he's single right now, but I'm 99% certain I know what he said to his last girlfriend when she said she was leaving him. :brood:

    https://ottawa.citynews.ca/2022/11/...-anymore-after-outpouring-of-support-6114759/

    I googled his name and it turns out he changed his mind as soon as a GoFundMe started in his name raised enough money. And the owner of the place he's living isn't selling it anymore, what a happy coincidence. :bergman:
    Okay, this lady I might feel bad for. I don't understand why she can't get the painkillers she needs. I'm guessing there's more to the story, but I honestly don't know.

    Regardless, I stand by my original two positions:

    1. Everyone should have the right to end their lives legally for whatever reason they desire, subject to some sort of screening process and a review of the alternatives to alleviate whatever their reason might be. I don't like it, I fucking hate suicide and I find people threatening it deeply traumatizing, but if we accept the premise that individuals should be forced to exist against their will just because society says so, then we're throwing open to door to individuals being forced into all sorts of other things to avoid upsetting society. If forced life is okay today, why not forced birth tomorrow, or forced gender conformity or forced religion the day after that? No thanks.

    2. Right now in Canada MAiD is not offered to poor people solely on the basis of their being poor. The current criteria is as follows:

    As of March 17, 2021, persons who wish to receive MAID must satisfy the following eligibility criteria:

    • be 18 years of age or older and have decision-making capacity
    • be eligible for publicly funded health care services
    • make a voluntary request that is not the result of external pressure
    • give informed consent to receive MAID, meaning that the person has consented to receiving MAID after they have received all information needed to make this decision
    • have a serious and incurable illness, disease or disability (excluding a mental illness until March 17, 2024)
    • be in an advanced state of irreversible decline in capability
    • have enduring and intolerable physical or psychological suffering that cannot be alleviated under conditions the person considers acceptable
    https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/cj-jp/ad-am/bk-di.html#s1

    Can someone who meets the above criteria make a request for MAID and then run to CityNews and say they've actually requested MAID because they're poor? Sure. They can also meet the above criteria, make a request for MAID, then run to CityNews and say they've actually requested MAID because there are too many ugly people walking around, or because the Toronto Maple Leafs didn't win the Stanley Cup this year. That doesn't mean the government has an official policy of euthanizing Toronto fans, that just means people are exploiting loopholes in the system, and people exploiting loopholes happens in every system. :shrug:
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  17. Spaceturkey

    Spaceturkey i can see my house

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    when you see the world as she did...



    [​IMG]
  18. steve2^4

    steve2^4 Aged Meat

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    Is UA contract telemarketing again?
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  19. Uncle Albert

    Uncle Albert Part beard. Part machine.

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    Choice implies consequence. What you describe is being parented. You want to live forever as a perpetual child, sheltered from the consequences of your choices.
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  20. Uncle Albert

    Uncle Albert Part beard. Part machine.

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    Your chosen perceptions are your problem, toots.
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  21. matthunter

    matthunter Ice Bear

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    Don't hate on the sighted because you poked your own eyes out.

    You're no Matt Murdock, Senator.
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  22. Diacanu

    Diacanu Comicmike. Writer

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    And every consequence is full-blown punishment.

    That's why everyone who took The Pepsi Challenge had black eyes.
    Left for Pepsi, right for Coke.
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  23. Steal Your Face

    Steal Your Face Anti-Federalist

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    Is this the same Canadian healthcare system that told a veteran to go ahead and kill themself?
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  24. Spaceturkey

    Spaceturkey i can see my house

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    na, it was veterans affairs.

    guessing it's some sort of PTSD related depression from going to the war on terra?

    but hey... he made his choices. right, libertarians?
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  25. 14thDoctor

    14thDoctor Oi

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    And as previously mentioned, that was one rogue asshole call centre employee who was found and removed for saying shitty asshole things to callers.

    Should we assume that everything Federal Farmer says here represents official Subway policy? :bergman:
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  26. Uncle Albert

    Uncle Albert Part beard. Part machine.

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    Neither are you any kind of visionary. Just another bullshitter trying to elevate his editorializing to the status of objective fact.
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  27. Diacanu

    Diacanu Comicmike. Writer

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    [​IMG]
  28. Paladin

    Paladin Overjoyed Man of Liberty

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  29. Shirogayne

    Shirogayne Gay™ Formerly Important

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