Civil war: Whose side are you on?

FWIW I don't think @Paladin is a Nazi or a fascist in an ideological sense. I'm also on record as saying that people resort much too quickly to those labels for things they don't like.

I do think that he's unfortunately in bed with the part of MAGA that is genuinely fascist, in consequence of in-group/out-group thinking. He'd be just as happy with Reagan/Bush style politics. But he's decided to hitch his wagon to Trumpism on the grounds of things like lower taxes and gun laws, and therefore reflexively goes along with the justifications for all of the other things, particularly as long as they have limited impact on himself.

yes i wish people like you did not exist i don't wish death on you i wish you would be given the oportunity to see yourself as you really are without your delusions and defense mechinisms that fool you into thinking you are anything but a mediocre small minded privledged white man who thinks he is somehow worthwhile of any kind of respect or deference. in other words i wish you could be enrolled in the Ebenezer Scrooge school of re-education

too bad you now shame your father legacy with that admission makes you look even worse. put the shovel down. my father fought the facists also 2nd Marine Raider Battalion i honor his legacy by despising the facist nazis currently 'running' this country into the ground.

In the end, though, regardless of motivation he is helping to prop up an authoritarian regime.
And maybe that's what someone of that mindset tells themselves. "Oh, I just wanted lower taxes. I just wanted stronger 2A protections. I just wanted more stringent immigration enforcement." But, if in getting that they are also giving endorsement to a regime that is literally carrying out warfare on the opposition, then it doesn't matter if in the aftermath they say "Well, I wasn't really in favor of that part of it."

And in case anyone tries to claim they're not engaging in warfare:

Yeah, but again historically there has been little sympathy for the distinction between those who support fascist leaders because they believe in the philosophy, and those who support them because they want the trains to run on time and think the fascism part isn't a deal breaker.

Remember when I said @Paladin wouldn't be willing to denounce any of those clearly authoritarian activities?

So far that appears to be the case

This. If I end up in jail or even worse, whether or not the people who support this administration allowed it because they hate me or because they wanted lower taxes (or both), the effect is still the same, the outcome is the same. That doesn't even get into the historical fact that fascist governments don't save people money, they don't protect freedom, and they don't serve the people. So it has zero benefit for anyone except the very people at the top. No one wins except the people who were already on top winning.

So when someone says they're not fascist but they're supporting fascists, then materially there is no difference, and so they get treated the same. I can't risk my life hoping someone who supports Trump only supports the tax side of Trump and not the "enemy of America" side of Trump.

Indeed, and all too often - across the spectrum - it's hyperbolic. Hell, Trump and others use it against the left regularly in the course of their narrative inversion.

For me, the fascist is the one actively practicing and enforcing fascism.

There are many more that are simply tolerant of, or tacitly supportive of, fascists because they consider it a better alternative than "socialism*". A lot of folks in informal discussion will call these folks fascists, but I can see where such folks would feel wronged by that since they are, apart from voting, bystanders.

Then there are the Vichy Fascists - they don't have a political goal except for staying in the good graces of the fascists and continued success in their profit making or career. I would say these are defacto fascists because they are generally in positions of influence and authority that COULD empower opposition but cowardice and/or self-interest neuter them.

*Socialism - another empty signifier word that amounts to a placeholder for "things I think are bad" and almost always used entirely incorrectly. The thing here is that it's wholly a talisman of the right. While fascism is thrown around by everyone, no one center-to-left EVER calls a right winger a socialist (or a communist) except to mock them. The contrast is that the same folks who are DEEPLY offended that they might be called a fascist are generally the same folks who have been calling everything they don't like "socialist" since high school. And they don't see, or won't acknowledge, the hypocrisy in that.

NO.

Authoritarianism killed those people. CLAIMING that socialism demanded it was just a post hoc rationalization for the shit that people like Stalin wanted to do anyway.

Fascism is a political philosophy that demands authoritarian actions, it's inherent to the belief system.

Socialism is an economic system that holds that government should act for the good of the whole society" (as opposed to acting for the good of capital). Now you CAN say "killing all the Jews is for the good of all society" (notwithstanding that the Jews are part of that society) but the economic belief system doesn't DEMAND that kind of violence.

But history indicates that authoritarianism is independent of professed ideology. If socialism was inherently violent and authoritarian, Denmark would be comparable to Cuba or North Korea...yet it's not. Professed socialism is often a myth (the Nazis deliberately adopted the term as propaganda (because they hated communists, in part) but clearly were not.

On the other hand, I'm struggling to think of an openly, proudly, fascist regime that WASN'T authoritarian.

What are we missing?

Some of these are less progressed down the path than others but the journey is in progress on all of them

Laying aside your oft explained views on sports participation, all of these apply to the way that the current administration and Republicans across the country exercise their authority in ALL matters relating to trans people (having used sports as the wedge to open that door but nevermind that)

When you support Republicans you support, by your silence, the dictatorial abuse of power to deny all trans people the right to the pursuit of happiness and the practical ability to live freely in society, to say nothing of stealing from the basic bodily autonomy.

Which, by the by, walks in the very footsteps of early Nazi oppression.

Without debating the F word - is this compatible with your view of limited government and maximum personal freedom?

VIRTUE SIGNALLING!!

(as they define virtue, we'd call it vice signaling)

An absolutely perfect example of Narrative Inversion - always accuse your opposition of doing the thing that you fully intend to do yourself. Even better if you can do so pre-emptively

Implying that "nanny state" and "globalist" are despotic.

Only if you're a neon-mazi-zoom-libertartian and even they don't actually live according to that professed worldview.

That kinda goes back to me previous comment - an empty signifier word serving as a placeholder for "things I think are bad"

To wit, I think shutting down the Department of Education or NOAA (if done properly via the law and not be executive order) are BAD but they are neither despotic or fascist...just stupid as fuck.

I think that snatching people off the street without due process, or, say, making it legally impossible for an entire segment of society to live their lives as they please in peace as long as they cause no direct harm to others, or robbing half the country of their bodily autonomy - IS both despotic and fascist.

Those are not words I use for "anything I think is bad"

Those were around in my day, its just I wasnt infantry(2531 field radio operator) and I never was stationed in a warzone. I did get some training with the saw and other weapons in boot camp and MCT, but it was just the M16A2 after . If I had been sent to a war my job would have been keeping the comms up. With the way tech and cells have come along since the 90s, I doubt my old MOS even exists anymore as they were already phasing out the field wiremen.

now it's a clothing optional beach there.

Leafs suck at every sport, it seems.

I'd ask about the quality at the beach, but I get the sense that Americans aren't welcome there... and I can't blame them.