This thread got me thinking the other the day and this post made me want to ask WF a question. What jobs are menial? Does anybody really see feeding people as menial? Do you see farmers as irrelevant in this day of technology? I know what confederate son would say so I don't really want his opinion. Flow and I both have degrees and neither one is an arts degree, in never going to be used. But yes we chose to live on a farm and to farm. We know people who are using tiny acerages to make half there income and doing other jobs for the other half. Any of you who are my friend on Facebook saw the piece done on us and know we don't just have one job for each. And a lot of that has to do with one job being boring. So what's menial? One of the best writers I've read did three jobs trying to get his first book published and finally self published. Now his book is being made into a Hollywood movie. He did the menial in order to pay for his passion. So who's to say that bus boy isn't just busing tables till his break comes.
Farming obviously involves some manual labor, but I wouldn't call it menial for YOU since you're the owner. You not only do the work, you receive the benefit for the work. (See my definition of "menial" below.) In any event, I was not in any way condemning those who do menial labor in order to support themselves. I think anyone who works to pay their own way is a better person than one who chooses to live at the expense of others. In the thread this topic came from, the question was raised about why there are busboys (at Sisko's restaurant in DS9) and janitors (at Starfleet Academy in TWOK) in a future where all material needs seem comfortably met and that exploring one's full potential is encouraged and facilitated. It was argued--and I find the argument less than convincing--that people in the 23rd/24th Century get some kind of personal fulfillment out of doing these jobs (remember, they don't HAVE to do them). It was also suggested--and I find this explanation contrived--that such jobs were part of some apprenticeship program (the busboy's becoming a restaurateur, the janitor...I dunno, Academy Commandant?). I kinda reject this because such a system would be unnecessary NOW, let alone in a far wealthier and capable future. Also, at least in the modern world, busboys FAR outnumber restaurateurs, so one wonders where the opportunities for each succeeding generation of busboys come from. The number of restaurants must be increasing at a geometric rate in the Federation! It should be remembered that we were discussing the economics of a FICTIONAL future human society and that there's no reason--indeed, no expectation--that the depiction of this future will not contain logical contradictions. No one knows, after all, what the real future will look like and even the writers of Star Trek are pretty vague on how it all works. Anyhow, as to the question: which jobs are menial? I don't know the textbook answer, but, to me, a menial job is one that involves most of the following traits: requires mainly/exclusively physical labor, affords little opportunity for creativity or improvisation, demands little/no education or training, adheres to a narrowly defined set of rules and objectives, offers little intellectual challenge, provides very little variety, and imparts little/no long-term increase in the value of the laborer for his experience on-the-job. Do you and flow meet this definition as farmers? Certainly, you do physical labor. But you do have opportunities for creativity (you choose what to grow, etc.). You need to know about farming in order to do it; you can't pull just anyone off the street and expect them to be a farmer. You're the owner, so any rules you face are of your own making. Farming requires knowledge and problem-solving skills, so you do have intellectual challenges. Can't speak to variety. I don't know if your value increases for your experience farming, but, as the owner, you receive all the benefits of your labor. So, I wouldn't call what you do menial work.
I sometimes enjoy menial labour, for a break. As was stated in the thread originally., you're guilty of projecting your own desires onto everyone else.
I don't think so. Look at what you said: you enjoy it for a break. That isn't at issue. Everyone enjoys some menial tasks when it serves their own ends. The question is this: would you choose to menial work as a full-time job if (1) you didn't have to in order to survive and/or (2) you had other work options open to you? Do you think most people would?
My guess is not very many. And those who do would tire of it and do something else pretty quickly. Well, it gets more contrived if you assume that the guys in ST are skilled workers only doing those jobs when the urge to take a break strikes them. The janitor is the Starfleet Academy Commandant and he's just taking a break to mop floors? Really? I don't think so. Workers work to accomplish some planned objective. It seems unlikely that any operation that relied on labor could operate with workers who only did their work when they were in the mood to do it.
And, incidentally, gul misstates what I said in order to engender controversy. 1. The topic wasn't manual labor, but menial labor. 2. I questioned no one's intellect, least of all flow's or Aenea's. 3. gul fails to appreciate that flow and Aenea are the owners, not simply laborers. And perhaps gul should understand that such occurances are notable because they're exceptions. The logical conclusion from gul's point? If people weren't motivated by money (i.e., material benefits of their labor), most people would choose to work as ditchdiggers and day laborers. I don't buy it.
I've got a good friend who left the big city 5 years ago for a 16 acre farm in the Interior. Went to visit him last summer and holy fuck do I have respect for what he does. Also some of the best produce I've ever had in my life.
I sometimes consider what I do menial, it's freelance graphic design/work. Only because 90-95% of the time the client/customer likes the first draft I give them and out of that maybe half ask for a few tweaks. So to me there'sno challenge in it.
no one who's job has a specific result - cleaning offices - fast food - what ever is not menial! Only snobs look at anyone that way
1. It's just a word. 2. All jobs have a specific result. That's what the person doing the job gets paid for.
Paladin, I feel like you've been given a million examples of why some people would volunteer to perform menial labor, and a million explanations to reconcile what you've seen on Star Trek, but you keep ignoring them and/or moving the goal post. For how many more threads are we going to go around in circles? Agree to disagree.
I sure as hell don't call running a farm and a winery and whatallelse you guys do menial! That's a LOT of freakin work! Plus you're the business owners, which, I think, discounts "menial" right off the bat. My image of "menial" would be working for someone else doing shit jobs like picking up garbage, cleaning bathrooms, washing windows...
fast food, waiting tables, pulling staples all day for an insurance company. I have done all these jobs, and they felt pretty menial.
What I want to know, before I give an opinion on any of this, is: Did this Manual Labor come here legally, or did he just sneak across the border so he could sell drugs and escape paying taxes?
my friend who runs the porn store with booths in the back actually had to find a jizz mopper. they pay $8.50 and don't take anyone with a criminal record. I was pretty surprised that he found someone.
