Apparently we need to discuss racism, because some here seem to think it's a one-way street. Let's start with the dictionary definition from Webster: 1: a belief that race is a fundamental determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race. 2a: the systemic oppression of a racial group to the social, economic, and political advantage of another; 2b: : a political or social system founded on racism and designed to execute its principles. Seems pretty straightforward. Racism can be expressed many ways. Political oppression, for example. Physical oppression such as slavery. Linguistic oppression, like racial epithets. Oh yeah, that one. Some words have become "wrong" due to the association with racism. The most immediate example in America being the "N" word, of course. This is a very bad word for a white person to say to a person of color. But apparently it's just dandy for people of color to say to each other. Taking ownership, defanging the word and its negative connotations, etc. Okay, perfectly acceptable and even logical. "Cracker," a racist term for a white person. Lots of people seem not to notice this one, although it is pretty much the equivalent of the "N" word for Caucasians. Tossed about with abandon, for example right here on Wordforge. But because it's directed at the oppressor, not seen as racist even though it pretty blatantly is. "Wypipo" is another one, tho of more recent origin. Yeah, applying a single condescending term to an entire group of people is just fine, at least to some. In other circumstances such things are bad, but pointed the "right" direction it's okay. At its root racism is the systematic disparaging of a group of people based on some trivial aspect of physical appearance. "They" aren't "real" people because their hair is different, or their skin color is different, or their eyes are different. It's tribalism, which the human race seems to find so appealing. And it's either wrong or it isn't. It's not wrong in one direction and okay in another direction. You either have respect for your fellow humans or you don't. If you get all bent out of shape at being called by a racist name but feel perfectly free to call others by different racist names, you are a racist. And guess what? By the observed rules of this sort of thing, you don't get to decide what other people consider offensive. Offense is in the eye of the beholder, and your intent means nothing. For example, I personally find the term "cracker" to be more amusing than hurtful, but I still realize it's a racist term. I would never use the "N" word as I understand its history and find it reprehensible and abhorrent, but I find it amusing when African Americans use it amongst each other. In some ways it's become an all-purpose word in that demographic, much like "shit" has in the general population. And of course we must also consider that language evolves over time (except in the case of "irregardless," which will never be a real word no matter what anyone says about it) and words that used to be harmless under one meaning - "faggot," for example, which used to mean "a bundle of sticks" once upon a time - can become hurtful and unacceptable in different times. It is possible that some generations hence, the "N" word will no longer mean much to anyone and may even drop out of the vernacular entirely. Or it may not. These things are difficult to predict given how fluid language can be. So what say you, Wordforge? Can a thing be racist in one direction but not in another, or is racism always racism?
I am "oppressed" by the great gibbering mass of humanity, always underfoot, always in the way. Which is neither here not there. Address the topic at hand or play your silly games and prove my point.
Also, where was all this energy from Lanz back when Muad was here defending "state's rights" or Sokar dragging Muslims or the years of Tasvir yelling the N-word at every opportunity, or when Ramen posted a lynching photo in "protest" of board policy, or....
Can people not grow and change? I know you think your cracker and whypipo talk is cool and all, but it's pretty off putting to a lot of people who might prefer just to have a civilized and constructive conversation You do you though, I 'm not here to tell anyone what they can and can't say
I seem to recall banning Tasvir a few times over his shit. If you've been paying attention over the years, you'd know that my tolerance for racism is pretty low.
I've always assumed "wypipo" was basically a gender-neutral version of "Karen," which Lanzman himself has used many times on the board. Or is are racial slurs okay when they're also sexist?
Speaking as a white person, I always took it as applying to a particular type of white person (like "Karens", as you say).
I wouldn't call it growth or change, since "cracker" has has long been treated by Rightforge as the worst, most hurtful racial slur of them all, while anti-black and anti-indian racism was laughed off as harmless fun. I still remember when folks like Muad and Tamar would insist that Mewa was the most racist Wordforger for saying "cracker" or honky" jokingly.
1) it's "wypipo" 2) You came to Wordforge of all places for "constructive conversation"? 3) show me where any of those folks changed. I'll wait. 4) I promise you that racists don't change their mind just because I powder their asses. When someone's asking a question in earnest, I'll answer it but I'm not extending energy on educating clowns.
I am asking in earnest. And you're proving my point, all but stating outright that racism isn't racism when you're doing it in the "right" direction.
Yeah, I see it being the same thing as that classic Chris Rock "black people and n*ggers" bit that he eventually retired. There's white people and there's wypipo, there's white women and there's Karens. Not really worse than "white trash" or "chav," IMHO. But if Lanzman wants to call someone racist for "wypipo," then he should look at his own use of "Karen." That's all I'm saying.
The most visible black Wordforge is always called a racist. Vandygoddess got it, Alphaman probably got it in the years I was in perpetual deployment in the 2010s and now that I'm not parroting Tea Party rhetoric any more, I'm the target. If I leave today, suddenly, Raoul will be an unbearable racist, despite being squarely centralist. I'm over it like Oldfella is over faking sanity.
Racial epithet alone isn't a sufficient condition to indicate racism.. It indicates a possible racist thought on an individual but racism as defined by your own post (quoting MW) involves some sort of systematic oppression of a racial group.. which in America, has never happened to whites (or at least to Anglo/French/German/Scandinavia varieties).
Put it this way, Lanz, if you have ever been unfairly denied access to a job, promotion, healthcare, entrance/service to a food/drink establishment, etc. then you may claim to be a victim of racism. Until then, no one wants to hear from your whiney white ass.
Ok I was speaking generally Wait are you saying you talk like this in public to people? Interesting So it's your position that people can't change then? Wouldn't want you to get out of breath Anyways I've long thought you aren't really interested in moving forward and actually making an effort to do something about the unfortunate racism that infects your country, and all this does is confirm it
JFC Lanzman, with everything going on right now this is the the hill you want to die on? That said I do feel terms like those are counter productive and when skimming a thread I'm less likely to give weight to a post that is using racial generalizations. Learn some context though dude.
If you're holding Muad or Tamar up to any standard, well that's just probably a huge mistake in the first place. Especially Mr Muad "Black People Actually Enjoyed Slavery!" Dib
Jeebus, you really are a fucking idiot. I'm not whining. Not claiming to have been oppressed or offended by a racist remark directed at me. For the slow among you, I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of decrying racism while exhibiting the same behavior. Or even worse, asserting that racism isn't racism if it's in the "right" direction. Do please be quiet and let the adults talk.
There is a large component of racism to the Trumpista throng. A lot of white supremacy rubbish amongst their motives. Seems a perfectly good time to talk about racism.
Sorry, Lanz. You're actually only allowed to talk or complain about the SINGLE MOST IMPORTING THING THAT'S GOING ON AT THE CURRENT TIME, and unfortunately you don't get any say in determining what that thing is. Better luck next time.
No, alone tossing off the odd epithet here or there is not a firm proof of racist holdings. But it sure does point in that direction, or at least betrays a profound cultural ignorance and/or lack of self-awareness.
Just saying something is not racist in and of itself. This is where people like you get your panties tied in a knot. Racism isn't just about words. It's about actions - and when those actions are accompanied by words that are intended to show the victim as less than human. So, again, when you have been unfairly denied access to a job, promotion, healthcare, entrance/service to a food/drink establishment, etc. then you may claim yourself to be a victim of racism.
This much, at least, is true. Being a member of the human race is the single most important factor in determining that you have human traits and capacities, and the human race is indeed inherently superior to lesser races such as dogs, turtles and NASCAR. (I would add cats in there, but the cats don't agree...)
I do not agree. They're all just species, just expressions of animal life in general. Humans are not innately superior to any other species, they just have more toys to play with.
Oh stop it, he doesn't even mention her by name in the OP Targeting is the word one would use if you want to emotionally charge things to get a point across
