Trans activists failing to persuade people on the sports issue

Discussion in 'The Red Room' started by Rimjob Bob, Jan 18, 2022.

  1. Ancalagon

    Ancalagon outta my way Administrator Formerly Important

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    Florida female student athletes have to report their menstrual history to play: When they got their first period, when they had their last one, etc. A third party has access to that info, and parents and doctors are raising red flags jacksonville.com/story/news/edu… @katikokal

    https://twitter.com/jaxdotcom/status/1577263262382653443?s=46&t=QSyJ6OHm-ZsS3wgWheYmzw

    Freedom ain’t free! Gotta make sure them trans aren’t stealing all the trophies!!!1!
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  2. Uncle Albert

    Uncle Albert Beep/Bop/Boop

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    If there is no cause for concern whatsoever, if all physiology is interchangeable, just make all sports coed and label anyone who opposes it a bigot.

    Some fucking douchenozzle: "Who made that literal claim? I'm clever! :hurr: "
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  3. Bill Carson

    Bill Carson Small r Republican

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  4. Jenee

    Jenee Ind. Jenee of Winterfell

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    Actually, I don't think any sport should be gender based. I know many women who could put men to shame with their sports ability. it should only be categorized by strength or ability. and many men who would like to compete would be able to compete with others of their strength and ability. No one gets left out. Not week men, not super strong women. Then the audience gets to see which athletes they'd like to see compete without stigmatizing one gender.
  5. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    They aren't gender based. They are sexed based. These two concepts aren't direct overlaps on a Venn diagram. And there are physiological differences. So says medical science, and every study actually conducted. Not to mention the record books of every sport out there save dressage and extreme long distance running.

    So if you want non-competitive non-sex based sports, knock yourself out. There are likely dozens of options in every metropolitan center in the US.

    If you want professional competitive leagues, there needs to be separation, otherwise you are disenfranchising thousands of female athletes.

    Yes, there are female athletes who could kick my desk bound, sedentary male ass.

    That is a ridiculous assertion though, because no one wants to see me play sports.

    They need to be competitive with elite male athletes in competitive professional leagues, even in competitive amateur leagues like the NCAA.

    And at the end of the day, very few can.
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  6. Diacanu

    Diacanu Comicmike. Writer

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    FF isn't a bigot, but he keeps bumping this thread with his gender norms bullshit.
    Don't call him a bigot, it'll make him cry, and you wouldn't want him to cry.
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  7. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    This goes back to my take that the far left has let their dogma get in the way of science at times, and that should be illuminated.

    But the far right is twenty times bigger and has gone absolutely batshit insane.
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2022
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  8. Bill Carson

    Bill Carson Small r Republican

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    #trustthescience
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  9. Ten Lubak

    Ten Lubak Salty Dog

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    Not to defend Federal Fuckface but Anc bumped the thread
  10. Jenee

    Jenee Ind. Jenee of Winterfell

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    You're either reading too much or too little into my comments. If we change sports to include anyone regardless of reproductive organs - born with or changed to :rollseyes: then yes, there will need to be more adjustments than allowing women in men's sports and vice versa.
  11. Ten Lubak

    Ten Lubak Salty Dog

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    The very definition of "small government"!

    Wow, you can't even make this stuff up
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  12. Nova

    Nova livin on the edge of the ledge Writer

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    there was a story just recently in which some non-winners in a sport/game competition claimed they only lost because the winner was trans.
    The Sport?

    Billiards.

    for fucks sake.

    Historically speaking, there wasn't a sex-based segregation of many sports for a long time until women - ciswomen - started beating the dudes from time to time. THEN it was suddenly important to have sex segregation. Weird, that.

    Anyway, that aside, I don't think that there's a future in unsegregated sports, that's a distraction from the dishonesty of the anti-trans crusade.
  13. Tererun

    Tererun Troll princess and Magical Girl

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    Billiards is not a sport, and too strong is a problem most toxic masculine guys have when playing. However, being over 6 feet tall does help a lot on a 9 foot table. Also wearing heals for that extra couple of inches is one of my secrets. Still a competitive billiards player needs to be skilled with the bridge because a skilled shorter player will notice and can easily leave you with those shots even if you are tall.

    It is not an insurmountable advantage in any case, but if you are playing best of 50 the couple of extra shots on a similar skill player could make the difference on occasion. I guess it would be similar with golf, which is also not a fucking sport, where the few extra yards a man can hit could make a difference over a tournament which is why female tee offs are different than mens. Having been forced to watch the golf channel (better than faux news) women golfers are pretty similar to their male counterparts score wise. Any game where pudgy McPumpkin can do well at is not one where physical dominance is important.
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  14. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    Women's sport was virtually nonexistent before the 19th century, and only prominent in the 20th. Going back as far as recorded history as we have, there were a couple of events in Ancient Greece in the Heriad, named for Hera, Queen of the Gods. The women were segregated there. There's very little recorded history of any other female competetive sports - a few tribes in limited parts of Africa, some pacific islanders.

    You really think that women were beating men in the Victorian age? Of course not - they weren't allowed to participate.

    Objective reality is there a significant physiological sexual differences between men and women - sexual dimorphism. You can assume whatever gender you desire, you can undergo surgery and hormone replacement therapy to reshape your body, that's absolutely fine and up to you.

    But men dominate in physical contests, indeed that's the entire basis of the patriarchy and why every single culture in recorded history utilized male warriors almost exclusively over female. Men are stronger, faster, and more aggressive, all due to the natural steroid that's in our bodies. Every human society lived in male dominated hierarchies because of this. It sure as fuck isn't because men are nicer, smarter, better organized, or in any way better fit to rule besides physical dominance. And thankfully we've reached a point in society where that one advantage is not in any way necessary anymore, though we still react to it due to millennia of conditioning.

    Can a woman occasionally beat a man in a sport? Sure. Do the best women beat the best men? Almost never. Do the best women have personal records equal to the best men? Nope. Go look it up.

    This argument that men don't want women to compete in professional sports is nonsense. The only people you'd be hurting if you got rid of segregated competitive sports where they exist now are the women who get to compete in them.

    And there are huge numbers of recreational sports that allow both men and women to play already.
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  15. Order2Chaos

    Order2Chaos Ultimate... Immortal Administrator

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    They’ve been asking these questions for 20 years, and they’ve always been optional.
  16. Jenee

    Jenee Ind. Jenee of Winterfell

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    Does that make it right to even have the question? even if it is optional?

    Also, do you think with the new laws radically reducing women's rights this question will remain optional?
  17. Bill Carson

    Bill Carson Small r Republican

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    Careful, that doesn’t fit the prescribed narrative. Dicky will be calling you transphobic soon.
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  18. Diacanu

    Diacanu Comicmike. Writer

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    No, I said he was getting all his hot takes from Joe Rogan, and he pretty much threw his whole soul into a log chipper.
    But I deleted it for being too over the top. :shrug:
    But now it's back to annoy you. :diacanu:

    PS, I'm supposed to be on ignore, liar.
    :smooch:
    :finger:
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  19. Tererun

    Tererun Troll princess and Magical Girl

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    So you are being punished by Federal fuckup not humiliating himself by trying to counter your points with his lies and stupidity too? Welcome to the being owned by the village idiot club.
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  20. Bailey

    Bailey It's always Christmas Eve Super Moderator

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    Are you under the impression that highlighting your own straw man argument somehow validates it?
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  21. Uncle Albert

    Uncle Albert Beep/Bop/Boop

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    r
    Are you under the impression that you get to decide what is a strawman argument? If we're meant to accept boys as girls based solely on their say-so, everything I said is implicit.
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  22. Nova

    Nova livin on the edge of the ledge Writer

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    the bottom line remains, we've had a massive data sample over roughly 20 years and - trans women(and girls) VERY seldom even win and basically never dominate their sport.

    The hypothesis was reasonable 25 years ago - it's been tested, and it failed. Time to revise the hypothesis.
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  23. Tererun

    Tererun Troll princess and Magical Girl

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    I am pretty fucking sure I could kick @Bill Carson or @Uncle Albert or @Demiurge 's ass with my super trans powers in their sports any day of the weak. That is because they suck. Oh, and @TheLonelySquire too. Nope, I am too fucking stong for them so I will just sit over here and you all can compete on your lower level without me.

    I think the right is just forfeiting because they know they can't win. I guess trans people are just better and you cannot let them in the game because they will always win.

    Don't play the we can lose too game. This is the game of the weakling. They are really good actually, but those other people are cheating so they won't even play the game.

    We all know who says that sort of thing, and it is a fucking loser.
  24. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    Well, that's not true at all, LOL. There is in no way, shape or form a MASSIVE data sample. That's complete and utter bullshit. There are about 50 transwomen athletes that are competing in that in the US at amateur, NCAA level sports and almost none at the professional level. There's almost no data sample. There will be far more going forward, and the data should be analyzed as it comes in.

    And I've already provided the extant data in this thread. Transwomen athletes in individual sports won at a hugely disproportionate rate, literally a thousand times more likely than a cis woman. But there are almost none of them.

    I understand it's your advocacy groups pushing that lie, and you want to believe it, but it doesn't change the fact it's a lie. And the PhDs assessing the impact on the sport have already changed the rules to make it closer to fair, at both the college and olympic levels.

    It's also a lie that there's a transpanic in sports, as there are so few transathletes competing at this time. The right wing absoutely is making political hay out of this, and they don't want transathletes to compete at all. That 50 transathletes is out of 110,000 in women's sports at the collegiate level in the US.

    But it doesn't take a PhD to know that when you have 6 transwomen athletes competing in the NCAA in individual sports and when 2 of them win their conference championships and 2 of them win national championships they are having an incredibly disproportionate success rate. It takes basic math. The chance of any one woman winning a national championship in any 1 year at that level in the sport almost all of them competed in, swimming, is 3/10ths of 1 percent. .3%, or .003.

    That list is from here, which was an attempt to summarize all the transathletes competing openly in the NCAA in the last decade. https://www.outsports.com/trans/2022/1/7/22850789/trans-athletes-college-ncaa-lia-thomas

    Hormone blockers being in wide spread use among those considering transition will make this a moot point, so hopefully we'll get to a better place where these discussions become antiquated.
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2022
  25. 14thDoctor

    14thDoctor Look at me. I'm the Dayman now.

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    I think the data sample Nova refers to comes exactly from there being so few transwoman athletes competing at higher levels despite there being large numbers of transwoman athletes competing generally. That so few transwoman athletes make it into the higher levels despite their allegedly overpowering advantages over cis women proves her point. :async:
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  26. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    So there any studies that confirm 'large numbers of transwomen athletes' competing generally? And what do you mean by 'generally?'

    Pew's survey in 2021 showed about half a percent in the US identifies as transgender. Of course, that's a social designation, not a sexual one, depending on where they are in their transition. The number that are actually transitioning medically is smaller than that, and that's the demographic that this would need to address. This is the difference between sexuality and gender. Identifying as a different gender without medical transition isn't likely to allow one to participate in any segregated sport as the other sex.

    It also depends on the number of transathletes who are out. Without knowing that, it's much more difficult to assess.

    We do know once we have data at the collegiate level, of those trans athletes that are out, transwomen are both a tiny fraction competing but also win at a vastly higher rate.

    This is one of the criteria that the IOC and NCAA looked at when identifying whether or not they should adjust the guidelines. They chose to do so.
  27. Ancalagon

    Ancalagon outta my way Administrator Formerly Important

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    How many folks in this thread have read or are even aware of the Sally Yates Report?
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  28. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    I haven't read it. I did read a couple of articles about it at the time. Mostly about how men abused coaching positions and there were repeated sexual assaults in women's soccer. Something else you find pertinent?
  29. Ancalagon

    Ancalagon outta my way Administrator Formerly Important

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    At the time…?

    You mean Tuesday? :unsure:

    https://www.kslaw.com/attachments/0...Spalding_-_Full_Report_to_USSF.pdf?1664809048
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  30. Nova

    Nova livin on the edge of the ledge Writer

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    but there have been thousands of events with tens of thousands of participants and virtually no trans winners.

    There are indeed very few trans participants because we are apparently ~1% of the population.

    BUT the reactionary right assured us that trans even being ALLOWED to compete would destroy women's sports.

    After about 20 years of trans people being allowed to participate on a widespread basis, no negative impact appeared.

    You're right that there's not enough of a sample of transwomen athletes to draw a conclusion about the claimed advantage - sample size issues absolutely come into play. SIX participants in the sample fercryinoutloud? You cannot draw ANY conclusion from a sample that size. That's not my argument - my argument is with the contention that the participation is damaging to women's sports and is an implicit threat to all cis women.

    Clearly it isn't.

    (Also, this doesn't account for those who were not good enough to make the teams at all, and it's only the NCAA - consider the Olympics, Hubbard, who lost badly, was the first transwoman to ever qualify and you can say "there's just the one" but that neglects all those, ever how many, who attempted to qualify and didn't. And then there's the handful of girls each year playing high school sports (or in colleges not on the NCAA level) so the sample isn't just six...but it's not large enough to draw conclusions)
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