Trans activists failing to persuade people on the sports issue

Discussion in 'The Red Room' started by Rimjob Bob, Jan 18, 2022.

  1. Nova

    Nova livin on the edge of the ledge Writer

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    Which is fine, the only people who make a fuss over that are those who want complete exclusion - seriously, many of the state level bans apply K-12, how does any objective person argue THAT is in pursuit of fair competition?

    What it's in pursuit of legislating trans people out of public life altogether.
    Again, SIX is not a sufficient sample to draw ANY conclusion. It's as foolish as noting that three of the six are redheads which means trans people are disproportionately redheads.
    The criteria they considered was right wing political harassment and decided they didn't really need to go to the mat in defense of a group of six measly athletes.

    Pretty much the same way that a couple of hospitals this year have folded under political saber rattling (even before the bomb threats and doxxing) to go ahead and start phasing out their gender affirming care programs because politicians were making plans to defund them (as Oklahoma just did)

    Saying "we'll we reviewed the data" is a much more respectable rational than "we don't need to put up with all this hateful bullshit so we'll change something"
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  2. shootER

    shootER Insubordinate...and churlish Administrator

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  3. Fisherman's Worf

    Fisherman's Worf I am the Seaman, I am the Walrus, Qu-Qu-Qapla'!

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    Honestly the hyper focus on professional sports and monetized student sports is far worse than a few trans women out of thousands winning sometimes.
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  4. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    They don't, and I'm not making that argument, as I've stated many, many times. You reiterating your strawman makes me less likely to trust your POV on this, not more. I'm not for banning transathletes. I'm for ensuring fair competition for women.

    This does not make me a religious fundy. If there were religious fundies arguing that all transathletes should be banned here I'd be opposing that viewpoint.

    The view that men and women's sports are only a factor of sexism by men and fear of competition is a quite common one among the left. It's just not justifiable based on the facts.

    It's the data we have, and it shows a massive disparity in success for transwomen athletes under the old guidelines. I agree, it's a very small sample size. The appropriate thing is to modify those guidelines as more data becomes apparent.

    As both more young people are identifying as trans and more trans people are feeling supported into coming out as trans, that should make more data available in the near term.

    Right, the PhDs are just lying. Got it. Hell, the woman in charge of the IOC task force is in Sweden. Clearly the Oklahomans threatened to invade.

    There's a lot of assholes opposed to all trans issues by reflex or indoctrination.

    But that doesn't mean that there aren't people that can disagree with you on subject based on other criteria.

    Once again, trans rights extend just as far as they impose on someone else's. Just like everyone else.

    Sports aren't a human right, but they are an equal right.

    And the fact so many people on the left are now for getting rid of women's competitive sports entirely is pretty toxic.
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2022
  5. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    I'm probably conflating it with the NWSL abuse that was discussed at length last year. IIRC 5 or 6 coaches were fired at that time. That's when the Yates report was announced, in response to those allegations.

    Once again, what part of that do you think is relevant to this discussion?
  6. Diacanu

    Diacanu Comicmike. Writer

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    And Gamergate was about ethics in journalism.
    And UA hates minorities in media because it's not written in well, and it's just luck-magic that he never finds a case of it he likes.
    And FF magically hates the showrunners for Star trek, Doctor Who, and every choice Kathleen Kennedy makes that isn't Mando-verse (which is also exempted by magic).
    Mmm hmm...
  7. Steal Your Face

    Steal Your Face Anti-Federalist

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  8. Diacanu

    Diacanu Comicmike. Writer

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    Is that in the article? That Jon Stewart wants little kids transitioned?
    Am I going to click it open, and make you look stupid?
    I'm giving you a last chance to amend your statement.
    It's more than you deserve.
  9. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    Gamergate, weren't you the poster on board here that was all about that? LOL.

    We are still in our infant stage when it comes to understanding how trans issues affect many societal institutions previously differentiated by sex instead of gender. Personally I think sexual dimorphism means that until transition is well in progress that it's problematic to allow people with significant biological advantages to compete in arenas that were specifically carved out as safe spaces for women.

    You guys have been arguing very, very hard that there isn't much of a difference in men and women's sports. Medicine, science, and a century of experience show us that there is.

    IMO, you guys are far more interested in what you want to be true rather than what is true, and that impacts your entire view on this one particular subject.

    To this point the people that study this for a living don't agree with you. If the data comes in and shows us that isn't the case, then they will reassess.

    Once again, if there were religious fundies here saying no transperson should ever be able to compete I'd tell them to fuck right off.

    The question is how can we be the most inclusive while also ensuring those safe spaces exist.

    I've been focused on the collegiate level on up as that's what little data we have.

    I don't agree with banning all transathletes from high school sports, but I do think that putting guidelines in place is valid.
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2022
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  10. Diacanu

    Diacanu Comicmike. Writer

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    Yep, I have a whole thread about how I got suckered by that horseshit.
    Having been in it, I know other suckers when I see them.
    :yes:
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  11. Uncle Albert

    Uncle Albert Part beard. Part machine.

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    Liar. Fucking shameless douchebag liar. No way you have just forgotten the examples. Your position is dependent on falsehoods. Go ahead and chicken the fuck out with a fantasy rep, you transparent fucking fraud.
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  12. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    I've already stated I will change my mind based on the data as presented, and I expect this 'problem' to go away as puberty blockers nullify the advantage of a decade or more of high levels of testosterone give transwomen athletes over their peers.

    But as the science of the physical advantages of testosterone isn't likely to change during my lifetime I'm not particularly worried that my POV of this is egregious. We've known about this for a hundred years.

    It's an anabolic steroid, it's use is banned in these competitions as a performance enhancer.

    Hell, it's in the root word. Testosterone suffix comes from the word Testes, and sterol, a clinical term for the organization of the molecule. It literally means gonad juice. LOL.

    This isn't going to change. Hence the difference between the social construct of gender and the biology of sex.

    Lots of trans people are upset with acknowledging this, because their mental makeup is oriented to oppose their biological sex, and yeah, I get it. In most things biological sex is much less important than the mental and social aspects of gender. Yes, we are fundamentally animals, but what makes us human is our mental capacities. It's what defines us.

    But in a few situations sexual biology still matters, and this is one of those few.
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2022
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  13. Diacanu

    Diacanu Comicmike. Writer

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    I used to say that shit all the time. :lol:
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  14. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    You used to say science was the reason you joined the incels against women in gaming journalism?

    Must have missed that part. :D
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  15. Diacanu

    Diacanu Comicmike. Writer

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    Not exactly the way you worded it, but I did do the Uncle Albert thing of wanting quantum level evidence against my position, and demanding no evidence from the CHUDs I was listening to.

    At least I have the sorta-excuse of the content I used to watch gradually, slowly, sneakily shifting to Chuddy over the course of 4 years, whereas UA and FF just cannonballed right into the CHUD swimming pool.

    Anyway, I did get the evidence, #metoo became a thing, and Charlottesville happened, and Sargon Of Akkad laughed at the victims, so it was all being ginned up by fascists.
    Course, Dinner doubled down on Sargon, and we saw how that went.
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  16. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    Fair enough.

    The thing is, I'm not listening to some asshole on the internet. Nope, not even Joe Rogan. :D I almost never pay attention to right wing media, most of my exposure to it is to those mocking it.

    I'm certainly not uncritically assuming religious talking points about 'what God created.' I have no truck with that whatsoever.

    Genital reassignment surgery isn't even necessary, as hormone blockers can lower the advantages some individuals receive by blocking higher testosterone levels. These 'I'm going to check your child's genitals' laws are abhorrent.

    Discussion is still ongoing in the scientific community, as is right and proper. Could be they find out that there is little to no competitive advantage. I find that somewhat unlikely, but there could be mitigating circumstances I'm unaware of, as I'm not the PhD here. I don't think the aim of this community however is to punish or exclude trans or people with DSDs. They are trying to find the most inclusive policy they can while not disenfranchising competitive athletes. But the later part is also important.

    Note that prior to puberty there is no known differentiation, so children's sports should definitely be inclusive. This is for high school competetive sports on up. As this can mean real, tangible benefits for students and their families, it is impactful.
  17. Tererune

    Tererune Troll princess and Magical Girl

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    This is a lie. It is not an anabolic steroid. The T that is given to trans men, and the T that would be present if a trans woman has not taken T blockers is not the same as anabolic steroids.

    The problem with your whole argument is you fail to read anything but the feelings of idiots and completely ignore actual raw data and knowledge that exists. Your feelings are not facts. They are just your prejudice fears and bigotry.

    No matter how many pages quoting liars and transphobes you write, none of it is true. No matter how many lies you make to support your claims it is still lies. Anabolic steroids are banned and able to be tested for in men because testosterone, which exists naturally, is not an anabolic steroid.

    You are fucking lying asshole. It is all your fee fees getting hurt over games you do not even participate in because yopu want to be cruel to trans people to make yourself feel better about yourself.
  18. matthunter

    matthunter Ice Bear

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    Science hat on: Testosterone is indeed an anabolic steroid. All anabolic means is it promotes growth, as opposed to catabolic which breaks down. However, the anabolics used by sports cheats are synthetic, whilst testosterone is natural. THOSE drugs are meant to mimic the effect on the body of testosterone whilst being easier for the body to absorb in high dosages. Some of them are testosterone derivatives!

    You're right that testosterone itself is not widely used as a performance enhancer simply because it doesn't act as rapidly as the synthetic types.
  19. RyanKCR

    RyanKCR TOF/PA survivor

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    The main anabolic steroid hormone produced by your body is testosterone.

    https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-...bolic steroid hormone,hair and a deeper voice.
  20. Diacanu

    Diacanu Comicmike. Writer

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    Nobody has ever said to themselves "I'm going to listen to this asshole on the internet! :polarslam2:".

    I'm sure you think your sources are peachy keen.
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  21. Tererune

    Tererune Troll princess and Magical Girl

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    It is not what is marketed as anabolic steroids as performance enhancers. It is a different chemical combination as performance enhancing anabolic steroids tested for by sports. Because if you tested for naturally occurring testosterone in male sports, you would have everyone testing positive.

    Also, the testosterone given to trans men is not synthetic anabolic steroids as defined by PED rules or laws, nor is it given above the naturally occurring levels that occur in men. The lie that some steroid pumping man is similar to some trans man just getting the same t as a regular man is a lie.

    It is a fucking lie that doctors are prescribing the same synthetics that cause harm as performance enhancing anabolic steroids. It is a lie made to pretend that rtrans athletes are cheating and to demonize their medical use.

    So before I start promoting chemical formulas that are well beyond the feel,ings of a guy who admittedly only reads the opinjions of people who may have read studies, it is well beyond the conversation.

    Oh, and when you have @RyanKCR jumping up and thanking you for a half assed technical support of their lie, you might want to check yourself. Next time do put up the chemical formulas for what they are claiming as anabolic steroids and what is the testosterone in our bodies and what is prescribed to Trans patients. Yes, the legal definitions for sports performance enhancing drugs are different than what is legal for a trans person to have. That means if I have T pills and T containing substances in my possession I cannot be arrested. However anabolic steroids are scheduled illegal substances so they are different as defined by law.

    It is sort of similar as how I can have THC-8 all I want in my possession here in florida. It is legal to sell and possess, but a small alteration of the THC-9 molecule which is illegal and does effect the body differently. It is the difference between hemp and marihuana. If I get caught with THC-9 without a marijuana card I can be charged with a crime. Oh, but technically they are both THC you say. But they are not the same chemical.

    Do stop assisting @Demiurge . It is 28 pages of his bullshit trying to claims his feelings are facts and making intellectually dishonest claims, which are technically lies under your own logic.
  22. Tererune

    Tererune Troll princess and Magical Girl

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    You miss the point. @Demiurge clearly admits he has not read any studies himself, nor is he familiar with sny science directly. All he has done is read the opinions of some guy on the internet. He clearly said it in his tererun length discussion.

    All he has based his entire opinion on is some guy on the internet who supports his feelings. In 28 pages he has done nothing else despite clearly being presented with science and facts.

    Really, it is all because he might see a trans teenage girl playing a game and he might spank to her athletic body in her tight "sports" outfit. The only reason any man here cares about teenage girl sports is leotards and short skirts. The only reason they do not want a girl on guys teams is because she might kick their ass and that would show off their trump sized little hands. Maybe at the top of the game you might not have to fear a girl or woman in a sport, but your doughy pathetic fat average dude could easily lose to a woman or girl. Those reasons are why men need to pretend cis women cannot compete with them, and why they don't want their brownies with nuts.
  23. matthunter

    matthunter Ice Bear

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    Science is science, T. I'm not assisting anyone except in using precise terminology and not twisting objective fact EITHER WAY. I threw you a bone there in saying you're right that testosterone isn't what most cheats are taking, but you clearly can't take anything other than a "with us or against us" stance.

    The minute you start denying science because it's inconvenient is the moment you join the anti-vaxxer fuckwits.

    And RyanKCR can fuck off if he bothered posrepping my post, because he's a cunt.
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2022
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  24. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    gusfring.jpg

    ;)
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2022
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  25. Tererune

    Tererune Troll princess and Magical Girl

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    Here is the reality. The term anabolic steroids is used by the law and common people to refer to PEDs which are illegal. When asshat, aka dummiurge, says anabolic steroids he is specifically talking about synthetic PEDFs that are beyond testosterone. If I quoted the chemical name of a synthetic anabolic steroid he would not know what it was.

    In regular conversation it is different, and your technicality is low end bullshit made to derail the conversation with education dummiurge is not capable of or even willing to learn about. It also does not count the same. If I have a container of anabolic steroids from a drug dealer that is illegal under the law, and I am with dan the trans man who has his testosterone pills on him, and a cop comes and searches us for illegal drugs I am going home and dan is safe because we do not have the same chemicals on us. So yes what the law and regular people define as anabolic steroids are not the same as testosterone. Also, like you said theyu do not have similar effects and street anabolic steroids are not what being prescribed to trans people and others who need steroid therapy. It is the same as saying all synthetic opiods are synthetic opiods despite a large number of them being far more legal and a little better than heroin because they are all synthetic opiods.

    But thanks for helping out dummiurge and ryan in the conversation. Do you want to support UA or the boiy in their intellectual dishonest lies too? Sometimes when we have a technical point that is well beyond the conversation, or helps out an ignorant asshat we drink a big old cup of shut the fuck up and go on our way.
  26. Ancalagon

    Ancalagon Scalawag Administrator Formerly Important

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    Actually half of all NWSL coaches were fired or resigned over the revelations.

    It was a Big Fucking Deal in WoSo and womens sports in general.

    Which led to US Soccer (org that oversees all soccer in the US from the US National Teams down to your kid’s Little Kickers camps) to hire a former US Attorney General to run a top to bottom investigation.

    The 319 page report was released on the 3rd. It documents systemic issues in women’s soccer (the second largest women’s sport in the nation) including emotional, mental, physical abuse of women from the National Team level, to the NWSL, to the NCAA, to High School to YOUTH soccer.

    As a person so very very concerned with protecting women athletes I’m just surprised you hadn’t heard about the release of the report.
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  27. Tererune

    Tererune Troll princess and Magical Girl

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    You admit you have not read the studies and have only listened to Jordan Peterson and Joe Rogan types for your opinions, and then you post this? Do you know what a fucking CHUD is? Objectifying women is one of their purposes. No CHUD dislikes objectifying women. That is what invented the CHUD term.

    Oh, and what is wrong with not wanting women to be objectified? Did you just asdmit I was right that the only thing you like about young girl's sports is jerking off to them? You fucking pedo.

    STOP SPANKING TO YOUNG GIRL'S SPORTS! Maybe then you might not have to worry about spanking to a trans girl.
  28. Diacanu

    Diacanu Comicmike. Writer

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    I'm entitled to the whole entire world being my own personal porno movie forever and ever, no matter how much it crushes the life out of every other living being.
    Says so in the Bible.
    :bailey:
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  29. Tererune

    Tererune Troll princess and Magical Girl

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    This is what dummiurge says about how he gets his information on actual studies. So instead of reading studies he gets a couple of articles written by who knows who (jordan peterson) and then comes here as if he actually did some research.

    28 pages of this same fucking argument and hiom claiming he has actually read data more than people who have directly science and shown him to be absolutely wrong and dishonest.

    He only knows what others tell him by his own admission.
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  30. Tererune

    Tererune Troll princess and Magical Girl

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    It is so obvious that the only reasons the CHUD male is worried about this is the lie that they are physically better at anything other than eating donuts, and that they don't want to accidentally jerk off to a pretty girl that once had a dick.

    Dummiurge and all the other CHUDs are clearly the friend from Bachelor party who had sex with the transexual and loved it to death, but cannot admit to it because he cannot admit he is a sub bottom trump.