Amnesty international details war crimes in Gaza

Discussion in 'The Red Room' started by RickDeckard, Jul 2, 2009.

  1. Dayton Kitchens

    Dayton Kitchens Wonderful, Loving Husband & Father

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    Independence does not mean "unbiased".

    And while I'll admit that outside the lab, I have no experience with white phosphorus, what exactly is the significance of "it can inflict horrific burns"?

    A number of weapons can inflict "horrific burns".

    flamethrowers, napalm, Fuel Air Explosives, hell even run of the mill 500lb. bombs or even IEDs and Molotov cocktails you can put together in about a minute.

    I've seen some guys come back from Iraq who were in vehicles that hit IEDs with their faces basically burned off.

    Why single out the WP?
  2. Dayton Kitchens

    Dayton Kitchens Wonderful, Loving Husband & Father

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    Anyone killed fighting Israelies or Americans.
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  3. Chris

    Chris Federalist

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    I believe them all, except that I think the densely populated Gaza and the fact that Hamas purposely surrounds themselves with civilians are more to do with high casualty rates. Even so, it is war.

    Actually, the only thing I find reprehensible is the use of children as human shields. That's inexcusable and cowardly.
  4. Dayton Kitchens

    Dayton Kitchens Wonderful, Loving Husband & Father

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    In regards to the Israelies supposedly not allowing civilians to flee houses they are using for fighting positions.

    Israeli soldiers come under fire. They take cover in a nearby house.

    1) Why would they order or allow the civilians in the house to flee? They could easily be killed in the crossfire.

    2) Civilians could also run to guerrillas trying to target the Israelies and give them information thus endangering the Israelies even more.

    3) Soldiers are obligated to minimize civilan death and injuries IF POSSIBLE.

    They are not obligated to minimize civilian death and injuries at the expense of their own lives.
  5. Tuttle

    Tuttle Khaaaaaaaaaaann !!!

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    Though they do some very good work, Amnesty International is the epitome of a biased source. It's about as credible a source of information as committees formed by the UN (which is to say not very).

    Along with everything already said above, Palestinians women and children have often been combatants in the past; with terrorists it's hard to tell. Not a large %, but more than none.
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  6. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

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    Why do you continue to misrepresent the report? It is not that they ordered people to "remain inside" as you first claimed. It is not that they didn't allow them to flee as you now claim. It was specifically that they used them as human shields, to protect themselves from enemy fire - including forcing them to walk in front of patrols and to precede them into buildings suspected of being booby-trapped.
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  7. Dayton Kitchens

    Dayton Kitchens Wonderful, Loving Husband & Father

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    The point of this would be to force the Palestinians to stop fighting as guerrillas and come out into the open to battle the Israelies.

    Guerrilla fighters by their very nature endanger civilian populations.

    If the Palestinians are so hot to fight the Israelies, why don't they come out in the open to do it?
  8. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

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    I am not endorsing or defending the tactics of Hamas. The problem here is that you are.
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  9. Dayton Kitchens

    Dayton Kitchens Wonderful, Loving Husband & Father

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    No I'm not.

    I'm saying this

    IF A GROUP OF PEOPLE WISH TO ENGAGE A MILITARY FORCE IN BATTLE, THEY HAVE AN OBLIGATION TO COME OUT AND DO SO OPENLY, SO AS NOT TO ENDANGER THEIR OWN CIVILIANS.
  10. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

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    Agreed. So, what has that got to do with the IDF using human shields, or have you given up on trying to defend that?
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  11. Dayton Kitchens

    Dayton Kitchens Wonderful, Loving Husband & Father

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    "IF" the IDF has been doing this (and I will not concede it unless I see evidence from an unbiased source) then I believe it to be an effort to eliminate the guerrilla tactics of Hamas.

    Thus that is a perfectly legitimate use of force by the IDF.

    Face it, the IDF doesn't need such measures if they wanted to kill Palestinians.

    The IDF could wait until another American celebrity dies (thus filling the news cycle) and then kill Palestianians by the hundreds of thousands. A brief brouha, mean talk at the UN, and it would be all over.

    The IDF doesn't do that because they and the Israeli state they serve are basically good decent people who don't massacre even avowed enemies.
  12. Paladin

    Paladin Overjoyed Man of Liberty

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  13. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

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    :jayzus:

    I'm not even going to bother asking you what you'd consider an unbiased source, seeing as you admit you'd excuse it anyway.

    EDIT: @ Dayton

    EDIT 2: Fuck it, that's going in my sig.
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  14. Ancalagon

    Ancalagon outta my way Administrator Formerly Important

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    Amnesty is not completely useless. They do REALLY good work highlighting the plight of prisoners of conscience around the world.

    They catch alot of shit b/c they are pacifists and they tend to highlight the crimes of western-style democratic states more than terrorists or guerrillas... well... yeah. People that support terrorists, usually aren't the kind of people that give a fuck if terrorists are being assholes. Democratic governments not only are held to a higher standard, but the people that support them generally don't like bad shit being done in their name. Thus Amnesty actually has a chance of changing opinions/changing policy there.
  15. Dayton Kitchens

    Dayton Kitchens Wonderful, Loving Husband & Father

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    The Economist is pretty unbiased.

    Business Week is pretty close.

    The Week isn't bad though they are more of a "digest" of previously written stories than anything.
  16. snoopdog

    snoopdog Fresh Meat

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    Typical left wing terrorist buttkissers LOL LOL LOL
  17. Volpone

    Volpone Zombie Hunter

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    Well, shit, you must love the Taliban then. They've trumped that and are using children as human bombs.
    :boom:
  18. snoopdog

    snoopdog Fresh Meat

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    Leftys call suicide bombers "Freedom Fighters" go figure...
  19. tafkats

    tafkats That'll put marzipan in your pie plate, bingo! Moderator

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    What's your argument here, exactly? The fact that Israel uses white phosphorous, which can inflict horrific burns, doesn't matter because Molotov cocktails can burn you too?

    Seriously, what's the logic train here?
  20. Zodiac

    Zodiac Banned

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    Israel does this stuff all the time. The problem they have is they sometimes get caught doing it.

    Housing Minister: Spread of Arab population must be stopped

    Now, if an Arab said, "Spread of Jewish population must be stopped", what do you think would be the media reaction? This is not an isolated display of tribalism, but a very real problem. Comparing Israel to Nazi Germany is fallacious because the Israelis have been doing the genocide thing far more effectively.
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2009
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  21. tafkats

    tafkats That'll put marzipan in your pie plate, bingo! Moderator

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    Oh, really?

    Care to throw up some numbers to back up that statement?
  22. Zodiac

    Zodiac Banned

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    I can't offer 6 million if that's what you mean. It's the methods that are superior. Instead of slaughtering people, you can shut off their water and electricity. Have their women give birth at checkpoints by denying them access to medical facilities. Deny their refugees the right to return to their homes. Uproot their olive trees, destroy their livelihood etc.

    Although what Israel does during its incursions is horrific, the meat and taters of what it's doing to the Palestinians isn't done with weapons and it doesn't make the headlines.
  23. Order2Chaos

    Order2Chaos Ultimate... Immortal Administrator

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    ^And how about the 4 million Arab citizens of Israel?
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  24. Zodiac

    Zodiac Banned

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    Lying about being Jewish will earn you a year in prison. You will have a harder time getting permits for various projects if you aren't Jewish. Your home/business can be shut down or bulldozed if you don't have the necessary permits (These laws are enforced retroactively.)

    This is only the state-sponsored racism. The under-the-table nastiness extends to non-[WIKI]Ashkenazi[/WIKI] Jews as well.

    I can provide heaps of examples of Israeli war crimes and discrimination if need be. The stuff that doesn't make the headlines.
  25. Dayton Kitchens

    Dayton Kitchens Wonderful, Loving Husband & Father

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    If the Israelies were committing genocide then the Palestinian population would not be rising steadily.

    In Israel, there are Muslim members of parliament and Muslims serve with distinction and honor in the Israeli Defense Force.

    You could make a strong case that more Muslims have voted in Israeli elections than in the "elections" of any of their neighbors.

    That pretty much says it all.
  26. LizK

    LizK Sort of lurker

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    I didn't see any place where AI condemned Hamas and the Palastinians for using civilians as shields or for their acts against Israel, so I would say it's a bit one-sided.
    Had it included that angle as well as the negative Israeli angle I might have been swayed.

    Oh, and where is the AI scream of outrage for Tehran's latest actions after a somewhat suspicious election?
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  27. Ancalagon

    Ancalagon outta my way Administrator Formerly Important

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    Now I know you are making shit up. While early on there was bias towards Ashkenazi Jews, simple demographics have put a stop to that. Sephardic Jews aren't penniless refugees confined to tent cities anymore. Their main party Likud, as opposed to more Ashkenazi Labour, has done quite well historically

    Not to mention the promotion of Sabra has helped lower the ethnic divisions in recent decades.
  28. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

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    It did include that angle. How much of it did you read?

    Here. :diacanu:

    It's a little early to expect a detailed report, of course.
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  29. Zodiac

    Zodiac Banned

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    No. Actions taken to curb their population growth would be too extreme to cover up or they'd be doing them already. Instead, you see Rabbis calling for more Jewish babies and House Ministers calling for the 'spread of Arab population to be stopped'.

    Really? What does this say?


    [​IMG]


    How about this one?
    (Graphic)


    Images like this are a dime a dozen. But God forbid someone harms an Israeli. Oh lord, then we send in the tanks.


    This is what Israel's been up to this week.

    Palestinians: IDF tank fire kills Gaza teen
    British prisoners report ill treatment in Israeli jail
    How Israel's naval blockade denies Gazans food, aid
    Israel: Misuse of Drones Killed Civilians in Gaza
    Israel to build 50 new homes at West Bank settlement
    Privately run checkpoint stops Palestinians with 'too much food'

    Same shit, different day. But it's all good because they have some token sand negroes that say it all.

    Israel will continue to torture and humiliate Palestinians and receive its billions while this country comes apart at the seams. Better people than me have tried to stop it or at least educate folks like you as to what's going on. I don't care. Believe whatever you like :shrug:
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  30. Ancalagon

    Ancalagon outta my way Administrator Formerly Important

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