Discussion in 'The Red Room' started by gturner, Jan 22, 2016.
That doesn't happen in other industrialized countries.
Compare the Canadian violent crime rate to the American one. Hell, factor out any group you please and only count white American violent crime rates and you will still see we are way higher with way more mass shootings.
Our white violent crime rate is about on par with Canada's. About every time you turn around up there there's some white guy bashing a seal's head in.
One school shooting out of how many in the last three decades?
No doubt Canadians aren't shrugging this off the way we now do with our monthly mass murders.
In Montreal in 1989 a 25-year old shot and killed 14 women, and in Quebec in 2006 an 18-year old injured 20 people and killed one. They'd have far more school shootings if it weren't for the fact that most Canadians go directly from elementary school into the syrup, lumber, fishing, or fur trades.
Mass shootings, maybe...but while white Americans commit murder more often than Canadians do, It's but not by all that much.
Canada is a very violent place. You just don't see much coverage in the news because it's suppressed by the liberal media. And @We Are Borg
And because @Spaceturkey stops most of them with his leather jacket
Is that the argument you suggest the shooter make in court?
Very much this. I get tired of gun nuts posting these "see it happens elsewhere" threads as if it somehow proves there is nothing to be done about the rate of gun violence in the US. The figures speak for themselves and there is a clear need to reflect on gun availability and cultural attitudes. As an outsider it baffles me how the obvious can be staring the US in the face and yet there is so much bullshit peddle to maintain a position of denial that sometimes it really is difficult to rationalise.
While we all love visiting your country (pretty much all of Europe really) we don't want to be your country. Guns seem like a bigger, scarier deal than they are to you because you are an outsider. We've discussed time and time again that the statistical odds of any one person in the US getting fatally shot are less than getting killed in a car wreck, or a preventable heart attack. My point being with all the crazy shit that kills people in the US why is the rest of the world (or even many US citizens) so fucking wrapped around the axle/knickers in a twist over one cause of death versus the rest of the causes? You have alcohol related deaths in your country - what have you as a nation done to control those? Whatever you have done it's not enough - why not a complete ban or initiation of "common sense" alcohol control? Or stop glamorizing your booze culture for a start? You have your cultural dangers, and we have ours. BTW our gun deaths are going down (fact) and gun ownership is going up (fact). Obama must be doing something right, if it's only to prove that people are the problem/solution to gun violence, not the guns.
@Dinner's post raises another interesting point that the gun nuts both embrace and ignore. Note his offer to factor out various ethnic groups so as to get the lowest rate possible. Yes, this makes the case that no matter how you slice the data, the US has a higher rate of gun violence. Many of the gun nuts like to use this data slicing to make the statement that our rates are high only because of black on black violence.
And yet they ignore the obvious follow-up. If it's not about culture, why is there a disparity from one neighborhood to another? It is very much about culture. A person who is in the mafia is more likely to use a gun for violent purposes than somebody who is not a member of the family. A drug dealer is similarly more likely, etc.
But it's not about culture, that just couldn't be. The strange thing is that if the folks so fearful of mythical gun grabbers were to actually listen to the argument, they might realize that it embraces the idea that easy gun access in a vacuum isn't dangerous. It becomes dangerous when we celebrate the gun as a path to righteous glory.
The real question is how much the massively increased gun sales in Europe are going to affect global prices. Merkel is trying to compete with Obama as the world's greatest gun salesman.
So you finally figured out what pro-gun ownership people have been preaching? That 99 percent of the gun owners have their shit together and will not use a gun for violent purposes? so 99 percent of the gun owners do not "celebrate the gun as a path to righteous glory." And you are right, it's not a race thing, it's a culture thing. You mention the Mafia - 100 percent white, but they have no problem shooting somebody when push comes to shove. What percentage of the US is in the by-god have to pretty much be born into it Mafia? .000001 percent maybe. So what's your solution then? Ban guns and punish the 99 percent who don't abuse their gun rights? No matter how you slice it, only a small minority of US citizens will kill another person with a firearm, and most of those are "business" related AKA only shooting people from within their sub-culture. A gang-banger kills another gang-banger - cry me a river. I have violent criminals in my family. They know the risks, and get no pity from me. Again, what's the solution? What about that cultural disparity - abolish capitalism and make everything free so there are no poor people? We have something like that already called "prison." Everyone gets the same food, shelter, and treatment. So why the fuck does the gang of 200+ pound guys steal Johnny Whitebread's dessert? They have their own dessert, so what's their motivation? Just sayin'
Posts like this make me miss the old Gul, before he went insane and became a horrible hypocrite, and a terrible liar.
Oh, how I miss the past. He must have been on a steady drip of lead in the diet or something.
Who's saying it's not about culture?
IIRC gul used to be even nuttier and was driven off the board. Then one day he came back... as an owner.
About which culture? The anti-gun folks (especially those living across the pond, bless their pointy little heads) would have you believe it's the "gun fetish culture" which is the problem. You know, guys like Forbin who own and shoot several guns - that ticking time-bomb
of a WMD (White Middle-aged Devil). Who knows how many inner city drive-by shootings his guns have inspired? I bet half of those shooters have a Forbin poster on their ceiling. Or take myself - my son owns a gun so now it's GENERATIONAL!
What if he gets married and his kids own guns? Somebody stop us!
Who besides Oldfella's saying it's not about culture?
I'm not saying it's not about culture - the culture of committing violence and mayhem with firearms toward your own neighbors - of which I'm not part and parcel. Granted, unless it's ultimately job related being as I'm retired military & still working for them.
The FN M249S Squad Automatic Weapon (SAW) has been released in semi-auto, firing from a closed bolt, for home defense and with an expected retail price of just $7,999!
ETA: Is the SAW usually an open bolt or something?
Apparently so. That's very common for belt-fed machine guns so they don't cook off.
ETA: For those who don't know the difference, guns that fire from a closed bolt (almost all guns you might own) put a round in the chamber and then sit there until you pull the trigger, releasing the hammer or firing pin to fire the cartridge. But that means that when you let off the trigger there's a cartridge sitting in a hot chamber, and if the barrel is really hot it might go ahead and fire due to the heat. That will cycle the action and load another cartridge - which will cook off and fire, which will cycle the action, and this will continue until the belt runs out. The shooter has lost control of the weapon because the trigger is bypassed by a glowing red barrel.
So many air-cooled machine guns and a lot of small submachine guns fire from an open bolt. On such guns the trigger doesn't release a hammer or firing pin, it releases the entire bolt to move forward, chamber, and fire a cartridge. On some weapons the bolt face has a nipple that ignites the primer merely on the act of slamming the cartridge into the chamber, saving a whole lot of parts and complexity.
Water cooled machine guns (Maxim guns and Browning 1919's) generally fire from the closed bolt because the water jacket prevents the barrel from getting hot enough to cook off.
Why go to the trouble of making it closed bolt for <snicker> home defense? Why not just leave it open bolt like an Uzi?
Ah, intentional slam-fire.
Accurate as throwing a sock in a crosswind.
I've used SAW a few times in the military. "Squad Assault Weapon" should be a clue that "home defense" isn't their main purpose. Granted, if your home is so big that you are setting up an ambush against dozens of bad guys (maybe a Scarface sprawling estate situation) I would say buy one. Sorry, I could buy a half dozen AR platform weapons for the price of one SAW.
Because obviously most home invaders would see that you don't have a round in the chamber!
Frankly, the probably looked at what they'd have to do to make the SAW semi-auto only and were faced with making major changes to the bolt and trigger group. It was probably easier to copy parts and mechanisms from a regular semi-auto rifle.
M249 trigger and sear
The safety on the M249 just keeps the bolt from going forward. Yeah, they probably made some major changes.
Then what's the point?
Like many rather short sighted gun owners, you seem to think "home defense" is limited to shooting in your home or something. Far from it! If the bad guys have already gotten to your home you've done screwed up, and badly, putting your family and your entire baseball card collection at risk. The beauty of the civilian SAW is that you can go fight the home invaders in Mexico, or North Korea, or wherever they might be coming from long before they're crawling across your lawn.
YES! Beat them to the punch as it were. Sounds crazy, but it just might work. Unless......that's just what they're expecting me to do!
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