Apple: Pot, meet kettle.

Discussion in 'The Red Room' started by We Are Borg, Feb 17, 2016.

  1. We Are Borg

    We Are Borg Rey of sunshine

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    Okay, this is just about the funniest thing I've read all year.

    So let me get this straight: Apple Inc., one of the biggest abusers of privacy (alongside Facebook, Twitter, et al) is characterizing the U.S. government as a privacy abuser?

    Oh, how rich.
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  2. Ten Lubak

    Ten Lubak Salty Dog

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    Yeah I don't really see Apple as a saint here but good for them for refusing to give a government power to look inside anyone's locked phone. That's fucking bullshit and shouldn't be tolerated by anyone.
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  3. Ten Lubak

    Ten Lubak Salty Dog

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    I mean think if that technology got out into the public, as so many things do these days.

    Divorce rates would skyrocket. Mostly in Christian marriages. :bailey:
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  4. We Are Borg

    We Are Borg Rey of sunshine

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    Absolutely. Not defending the government here; just pointing out the hilarity (and hypocrisy) of Apple screaming about privacy.
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  5. K.

    K. Sober

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    You can choose to use Apple products. You can't (with similarly trivial means) choose whether the US government has power of you. I don't think violations of privacy as part of a contract should be compared to government overreach.
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  6. Captain X

    Captain X Responsible cookie control

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    :shrug: Even a broken clock is right at least once, if not twice a day.
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  7. K.

    K. Sober

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    It's still a bummer if you can't fix it because opening it would void the warranty and sending it in costs more than two new ones.
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  8. gturner

    gturner Banned

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    The basic issue is that our government is no longer worthy of trust. If Apple writes code to bypass their encryption than every Republican will have their private data stolen by the NSA, who will give it to the IRS, and then the IRS will pass it around to law enforcement, media, drug cartels, gang lords, and ISIS terrorists.
  9. Paladin

    Paladin Overjoyed Man of Liberty

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    While I admire Apple's stance on privacy for its customers, this case is pretty exceptional: the phone in question was owned by terrorists, and it may contain important evidence not only with regards to the attack in San Bernardino, but perhaps to other terrorists cells.

    Couldn't Apple find a way to unlock the phone without giving away the details about how they do it?
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  10. Sean the Puritan

    Sean the Puritan Endut! Hoch Hech!

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    The very argument they are making is that once the method for unlocking the phone is developed, it becomes a real thing and the genie is out of the bottle at that point, and there is no way to promise that it will never get released "into the wild" so to speak.
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  11. gturner

    gturner Banned

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    That's silly. They have their coders unlock the phone, give the data to the FBI, and then shoot the coders. They're only Apple employees. It's not like anyone gives a fuck about them. :shrug:
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  12. mburtonk

    mburtonk mburtonkulous

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    If you want to play "slippery slope," the idea is that this time it's a terrorist, but pretty soon everyone is a terrorist if it means they get to see what's on your phone.

    I was thinking about this earlier; all Apple has to do is reset the password on the Apple account and give it to the FBI. That's not nearly the backdoor people want it to be, and it shouldn't be--stuff like this should always go in through the front door, in public.
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  13. gturner

    gturner Banned

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    Progress. They managed to get a few of the terrorist's photos off the phone.

    [​IMG]

    Who is this guy?
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  14. El Chup

    El Chup Fuck Trump Deceased Member Git

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    "At least once"? :unsure:
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  15. Captain X

    Captain X Responsible cookie control

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    24 hour clock. ;)
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  16. Zombie

    Zombie dead and loving it

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    And it will be released into the wild eventually because it isn't Apple that will have the method. It's the FBI. Apple will just build it for them. The FBI will then farm it out to other agencies.
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  17. K.

    K. Sober

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    How are they going to keep the technology away from the NSA?

    We still all constantly make the mistake of forgetting what we have learned about universal government surveillance. We act as if it went away when Snowden left the headlines. We still can't wrap our heads around what universal government surveillance actually means. It is crucially important to realize this: The only reliable way to keep technology out of the US government's hands is not to have that technology exist.
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  18. gturner

    gturner Banned

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    Well, if it's a 2 GB iPhone they're limited because all the memory is on the processor, so you can't separate the non-volatile memory chip from the CPU, treating it as a memory stick with encrypted data. Ideally what could be done is to fault the boot sequence by changing the data lines on the I/O, and hopefully there's some kind of diagnostic state or boot failure state that could be reached where you could load up extra software that would reset the number of failed password attempts, along with just dumping the entire memory to a bunch of supercomputers at the NSA.

    If the hack requires physically accessing the phone's internals you don't have to worry much about the hack getting into the wild, similar to the way the hard drive companies can recover data by physically accessing the platters.

    But then there's an alternate possibility where Apple already has the hack, has already shared it with the government, and this is all a kabuki dance so nobody knows the hack exists and so the terrorists don't suspect they've been exposed.
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  19. Kyle

    Kyle You will regret this!

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    From my reading of the order, I think it sets a pretty dangerous precedent. Specifically, point 2 of the order requires Apple to circumvent security features explicitly designed to prevent brute-force entry of password attempts (essentially, it removes the time limitations on the number of failed attempts, disables a wipe of the device on too many failed attempts, and requires the software to accept digital input).

    If this passes muster, that effectively means that the FBI can demand that any entity holding encrypted data must disable security features intended to protect it. Your health insurer locks out your account on too many failed attempts? They can demand that be turned off. Your email provider rate limits how frequently a login attempt can be made? They can demand that be turned off.

    The order specifically states that the software developed should be locked to this device, and that's what supporters of this order have latched onto. But, if the government can compel Apple to do it for a single device, how much longer would it be before they compel Apple to provide them with a generic solution? And how long would it be before that generic solution manages to slip through the grasp of the FBI and filters down to local law enforcement, the CIA, or, worst-case, bad-faith actors outside of the government? And, lest you think that it would require any particular special skills to install, the government has requested that it be installable via direct firmware update, a feature of iTunes.

    If given a workaround of the sort the FBI has requested, all they have to do is feed 10,000 (4-digit passcode) to 1,000,000 (6-digit passcode) numbers through the interface they've asked for, all automatically. And that could be done quite quickly once the limitations have been removed. If Apple fails to head this off at the pass, anyone concerned about bad-faith actors accessing their phone should migrate to a traditional, high-strength alphanumeric password with biometric identification turned off (due to the Fifth Amendment, the government cannot force you to reveal a password, but fingerprints and the like are fair game).

    What might be on that phone is not worth sacrificing the security and privacy of literally every American that has encrypted data.
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  20. Captain X

    Captain X Responsible cookie control

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    There's a pleasant thought... Everyone's focused on the government angle, but Kyle brings up another important aspect - hackers. Thanks to "The Fappening," people hopefully learned to keep their private stuff off of the cloud. Something like this means the same type of people might be able to do the same thing again, only right off a person's phone.
  21. gturner

    gturner Banned

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    Well, if the government get down to the chip level and are willing to spend a lot of money, they can just burn through the traces from the CPU to the memory and run their own lines to it without upsetting the store charges. It would probably take a year or so of technical development to do that. It would be much faster to have a meeting with Apple executives and cut their limbs off one by one till they agree to the whole project in house, pro bono.
  22. gturner

    gturner Banned

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    Not necessarily. It depends if the technique goes in various front doors or back doors versus busting a wall down by having physical access to the board traces and the highly specialized engineering equipment used for chip tests and such, where every pin produces a scope trace. Absolutely nobody is upset that Seagate and the FBI have a lab where dead hard drives can be read by taking them apart and treating them like an alien artifact with readable magnetic fields. You know, the kind of thing they do to Hillary Clinton's wiped e-mail servers.
  23. Lanzman

    Lanzman Vast, Cool and Unsympathetic Formerly Important

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    Kyle's got it right. Since the government's default position these days is "we know you're up to something so we're going to monitor you all the time," then forcing Apple to do this would be a disastrous move. Once it's done, it can't be un-done and suddenly every cell phone seized as part of an investigation will automatically be broken, Fourth Amendment be damned.
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  24. Dinner

    Dinner 2012 & 2014 Master Prognosticator

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    Maybe Apple could take the phone, open it themselves then give the data to the FBI without giving the FBI a key?
  25. Kyle

    Kyle You will regret this!

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    Oh, I also learned today that there is precedence for compelling a defendant to reveal a password. How? The same All Writs Act that is being used to compel Apple to circumvent their own security, along with the deliberately naive line of thought that the mere act of disclosing a password isn't incriminating (of course, human beings know the consequence of that act, but very few lawyers are human).

    It's almost like a law that basically says, "In the absence of a law, the courts can order whatever the fuck they want," is a bad law.
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  26. Kyle

    Kyle You will regret this!

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    Ok, Apple is still being forced to circumvent their own security measures, it still opens the door for any law enforcement agency to demand they do the same, it still establishes a precedent that affects virtually every tech company in the country and any citizen with encrypted data, it still could fall into the wrong hands. All this would do is make Apple the fall guy if it ever got out in the wild and force them to maintain an evidentiary chain of custody.
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  27. Captain X

    Captain X Responsible cookie control

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    There are two things with that. The first is that the FBI is unlikely to accept that, whether out of pride, stubbornness, or more likely due to some chain of evidence rule. The second, assuming chain of evidence isn't an issue, is that then it establishes that the company is willing to do so, and now the FBI, NSA, and any other number of law enforcement agencies is going to be asking Apple to do the same, and it's going to be likely that the reasons for it aren't going to be as clear-cut as this case is. This puts a financial strain on Apple as well, as it means they either have employees who are being taken from their normal jobs in order to deal with all these requests, or they have to hire on new employees specifically for this work.
  28. mburtonk

    mburtonk mburtonkulous

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    I'm pretty sure everyone has me on ignore.
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  29. Captain X

    Captain X Responsible cookie control

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    Yes. :borg:

    Actually, the last part of my last post addresses what you posited.
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  30. Zombie

    Zombie dead and loving it

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    No.

    That's not what the government wants. It wants Apple to make a "key" and give the FBI the "key" to open not only this particular iPhone but every iPhone on the planet.

    And that key will eventually make it's way out in to the world either purposely or by accident.

    After all this is the same American government that has let the Chinese and Russians hack the system and get information on 20 million current and past Federal Employees from all branches of the government and all government agencies and the military.

    I'm sure we can trust them with having the key to every iPhone on the planet.
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