Discussion in 'The Red Room' started by The Ghost of Crazy Horse, Mar 27, 2021.
Then I can't help you.
Pull out deez nuts
it's near inconceivable how much better the U.S. version of The Guardian than the UK
here a quite good summary of much of what I've been arguing.
One of the ways I keep myself motivated - indeed often the only way - is to remind myself that the blockhead I'm replying too (on Facebook or in comment threads elsewhere under a news article or opinion piece) is NOT my intended audience. Anyone who feels strongly enough about his ignorant opinion to type it out is already a hard target, all the more so as the opinion is more confidently and more stupidly expressed.
Rather my audience is the passing reader who DOESN'T comment who's considering both my remark and his and judging who's making their point and who's just saying "in my opinion (which is just as good as your facts)..."
Async is right in that getting hostile in such a setting potentially surrenders a measure of credibility, so I only do that with blatantly hateful comments because it's also true that if you don't care enough about the rights you are defending to be passionate when it's called for, that too surrenders credibility. But I also comment within that same thread with extensive objective defenses of the facts, the venom is the exception in the course of a long discussion with multiple posters.
I have a bit more time and a proper keyboard now, so let me address some of this stuff.
It is being asserted as a prima facie truth (implicitly in some cases, but asserted nonetheless) by one side of this debate that gender dysphoria is exclusively a biological condition - as opposed to psychological, environmental or some combination of these.
The insistence that it is biological reveals itself in how the trans-rights movement deals with opposition that it encounters. Rights for transexuals are promoted as equivalent to rights for racial minorities or homosexuals (the latter case being explicitly grouped with them). Withholding such rights is to refuse to recognise and to discriminate against something that constitutes an intrinsic part of a persons being.
If one is born a male but is really a female, then it is ones right to be identified and treated as a female. Period.
And anyone who challenges that is being labelled as ignorant, a bigot or as some way providing cover for bigotry. This narrative suits large sections of the left, as it puts them in opposition to knuckle-scraping reactionaries and provides an outlet for them to champion an oppressed minority, without really challenging any power structures - which tend to kick back.
But public policy and political movements should be founded on firm science, not dogma.
There is some evidence that there may be biological reasons for gender dysphoria, but research is continuing and there is lots of debate. It is unlikely to be clear-cut.
For those who insist that gender dysphoria is biological, that absolutely includes cases in children - who it follows need and should recieve radical biological intervention such as is discussed in this thread, to resolve their problem.
But if it it were the case that gender dysphoria were caused or partially caused by others factors - then potentially massive harm is being done to these kids and some other solution perhaps ought to be considered.
I am against the presumption that - at least partially to avoid complexity and make life easier for liberal identity politics - the former path be pursued.
I will also admit that I am not heavily involved in this debate and not informed about the apparently many sub-groups and tribal politics that it has produced. That is unfortunately for the simple fact that I consider it a fairly marginal issue. To be sure, it is of vital importance to those directly affected but there are other issues that affect larger numbers which I prefer to spend time on.
Perhaps that leads me to being insensitive when I repeat arguments considered lazy about self-identification. I can understand frustration at that from people like @Nova. I can less tolerate it from the likes of @Diacanu and @14thDoctor who really ought to be less emotive. Children do go through phases and my concern is that overzealous parents should not be too quick to attach these labels or attempt to perpetuate the behaviour leading to them.
I (and others who challenge the narrative on this) are not necessarily bigoted, nor do we need to be hectored until we fall into line.
As I've already stated, I am wholly in favour of rights for transexuals being respected. As adults, you can choose to live as you see fit. You shouldn't be subject to any harrassment for that. The state should take reasonable steps to guarantee it - including promotion of unisex bathrooms, prosecution of hate-crimes, provision of treatments where desired and so forth.
If your views are coherent, you can defend them rationally. You don't need to label people who - perhaps clumsily - stumble into a debate on this as being aligned with this or that sectional grouping of bigot or alleged bigots. We're entitled to take a different view from you and you won't win us over that way.
While the other side is under no obligation to do so.
"Take the firehoses and dog bites stoicly and heroicly! ".
*Sits eating popcorn safe, cozy, and immune to the firehoses and dog bites*
You really ought to eat my shit and hair, "dad."
Hi, I'm RickDeckard.
You trans-es better be nice to me, or I'll vote for Trump in 2024.
Holy shit, right? It's not like he had that much credibility left after becoming an Assange/Putin sycophant, but still.
He sounds like Irish oldfella.
THAT is more like it.
No. No, I don't fucking think I will.
Except to say this: Some of us enjoy the privilege of not having the legitimacy of our existence served up as a topic for public debate, and then being used as political footballs by bad faith actors. Some of us do not.
The former have the freedom to put on their best William F. Buckley aires and dispassionately discuss a subject that they admit is a marginal esoteric interest to them while outside the theater the metaphorical hounds have been loosed.
The latter are...a bit too busy for that shit.
Why do I always get proven wrong? Anyways, it simply does not work like that. You need to stop listening to JK rowling and joe rogan for how it works. No child just goes I am the other gender and boom they are doing surgery and giving them hormone blockers. There is a first harmless step they do. They give them some time as the opposite gender and see what happens. Go play thew role and see how it feels. For a trans girl it is here is some clothing, and go do your thing as a girl. Then what happens is it either goes away or the child feels empowered and is much happier doing it. While this is happening the child is talking to some experts in psychology and medicine. They are talking to their parents, and getting an idea of what they want and then the choices about reversible hormone blockers come around, and in the future the possibility of hormones from the opposite gender come around. Finally, when they have reached the age where their body is no longer growing in rapid spurts the potential for SRS becomes available to them.
Now what the fuck about any of this is your fucking business? Why is it that you are so much more in tune with what some rando kid you have never met and have never medically examined is feeling? Why do you know better than scientists who have examined this, and yest they have actual evidence of this being quite real than you know of. I love how you have heard from some TERF or joe rogan and now are all of a sudden as educated as actual medical professionals. Talk about your Qackanon bullshit. Are you going to not take the vaccine because you read Bill Gates is putting mind control drugs in it so you want to eat babies at hillary's pizza parlor also?
Let us just get to the facts. It is not your business. At best if you want to torture your child and force them into unhappy and suicidal living because are trying to please some idiots on the internet, then that is you. I feel sorry for your kids, but when they hate you and kill themselves or self harm because of your cruelty then you kake the excuses that help you sleep at night. But stay out of other people's medicine and happiness. It does not make any difference to your life, and it makes other people happier. I am not sure why you feel the need to make someone else unhappy because you are uncomfortable. Fix yourself Karen.
I've consistently supported Assange, so have not "become" anything. Putin, no.
Okay, but you did.
If you feel that the "legitimacy of your existence" rests on the cause of gender dysphoria being a biological one determined at birth, then it is probably unsurprising that you consider discussion of that out of bounds. But it doesn't, and it's not - particularly when it might lead to hormone blockers being used on kids. One is obligated to try to find the cause of the issue before one takes such radical steps. If I'm somehow missing out on a large body of medical research here - please inform me. Were it to be determined to a high probability that gender and sex are genetically independent and fixed from birth, then I'd be all for it.
Care to share your own views rather than sniping and virtue signalling?
What is gender - is it independent of sex? Is it a social construct? What do you think of those identifying as non-binary or gender fluid and how do those things relate to transexualism?
You are not a doctor. You have absolutely no reason to be involved in someone else's medical diagnosis or treatment. You have not studied any effects of this treatment. You are not examining anyone and giving your professional diagnosis. You are not a part of any medical licensing board. You are not a part of the discussion. You are not involved in any meaningful way. Get your fucking bullshit judgmental nose out of the discussion. Since we have medical boards and licensing that has been concerned with years of study and evolution on the topic, and they have established procedures based on scientific study of the drugs involved and the physical and psychological wellbeing of the patient you have no legitimate reason to be concerned.
I will tell you that over the years these positions have been well established and result in the improvement of the patient despite any of your johnny come lately ignorant dead horses. Also, no doctor who wants to keep their license is handing out hormone blockers to 5 year olds because they have no hormones to block. Maybe when they are of age for puberty it would be an issue, but that only comes with discussion and diagnosis from medical professionals and not some rube on the internet.
End of fucking discussion on your part. You have shown absolutely no reason to be involved in any way. We have no need to discuss this any further with people like you.
See, there is your discussion. Discussion over as you have no place in it.
i will agree with some people that dumbassanu needs to STFU also. He does not make any argument, and his only position here is to show his wokeness and shout out bullshit insults based on absolutely no other reason that to pretend he is some woke leftist. Thanks for the help @Diacanu , but you need to take a big old cup of STFU and stop being a problem. Take your biden bro ass and go watch some more MCU movies.
As for your Rick, you have just as much reason to be here as dick. You have just as much reason to be here as he does.
At least the two of you have found a topic you actually belong in a discussion about. Perhaps the two of you should go talk about that instead of virtue signalling and getting involved in other people's medical decisions with their doctors.
@RickDeckard I would like to know what medicines you are taking so we can all tell you how wrong you are for taking them. Really, since you feel it is everyone else's business to geti involved in other people's medicine, why can't we tell you what to take?
Oh wait, you don't feel we have any place in that discussion because none of us are doctors or have medically evaluated you?
I do feel the same way, and perhaps you should take the message and stop being a karen.
And the Joe Rogan-ism stands revealed.
I've never listened to Joe Rogan. But that is what you're doing, and for the reasons I explained. You've got a little bag of canned responses like that and you're using them one by one to avoid any substantive discussion.
Oh, that's what you think what you're doing is?
It'd be cute if it wasn't deadly.
I'm wondering - is there a pathological reason that you never respond to the actual point presented to you and feel compelled in every situation to invent one of your own through quote clipping and strawmen?
It is not "deadly" to debate these issues. Debate is not the equivalent of abuse. Down that road lies censorship.
So after a wall of text that made me spooge all over my screen in jealousy @RickDeckard had the nerve to tldr rep my responses without responding to my overwhelming take down of him.
At least a dayton kitchens would try a response after being humiliated for his ignorance.
OK pickle rick dumbass I will accept that you never had any business in other people's medical decisions made with their doctors.
1 billion points for tererun and -1000 for rick putting on the factless whining of right wing talking points because no one needs to ask permission from him to accept their cxhildren's gender dysphoria.
If that's what you were doing, but...
You have, and you have been.
Nova's schooled you on this 'til she's blue in the face, and apparently you've -ed it all.
So, why not just throw pies at you like I do oldfella?
Where has Nova "schooled" me?
I see, you are trying to go after someone more on your low intellectual level. Good idea for you to take a break after my spnacking you. I recommend some lotion with aloe for your butthurt. I have seen many people with that tererun chapped ass and trust me the aloe helps.
Okay, be like that.
Does he have to pay @oldfella1962 or @T.R for their copywrite on that response?
Separate names with a comma.