Can Kids Consent to Hormone Blockers?

Discussion in 'The Red Room' started by The Ghost of Crazy Horse, Mar 27, 2021.

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Can Kids Consent to Hormone Blockers?

This poll will close on Mar 27, 2031 at 5:46 PM.
  1. Yes

    10 vote(s)
    55.6%
  2. No

    5 vote(s)
    27.8%
  3. Teh Baba

    3 vote(s)
    16.7%
  1. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

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    I presume you're referring to something relevant that was posted in this (very long) thread before I became involved. There certainly hasn't been a response to me specifically.
    Not a link? Nothing? Easier to just sling mud, I suppose.

    EDIT: Re-reading the first page, it seems that @Nova's attitude was about the same as yours is now. Stay in your lane. None of your business. Don't ask questions.
    Fuck that.
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2021 at 9:49 AM
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  2. Uncle Albert

    Uncle Albert Dare to be Stupid

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    It must be so convenient to check your mind out of a conversation the second you see a trigger word.
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  3. Tererun

    Tererun Troll princess and Magical Girl

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    You forgot to log into your @RickDeckard account.
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  4. steve2^4

    steve2^4 Aged Meat

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    This seems a lot like abortion: it's a private issue between the Dr and patient and parents. Govt shouldn't be legislating private medical issues, there is no societal impact.

    It's not like failure to get your children medical treatment. It's the opposite.

    Would someone summarize the viewpoints? I'm only now getting interested after the news reports from AK AR. Dayton must be happy.

    AK AR governor Hutchison said this when he vetoed the bill (he was overridden): (source)

    The Republican governor rejected legislation that would have prohibited doctors from providing gender confirming hormone treatment, puberty blockers or surgery to anyone under 18 years old, or from referring them to other providers for the treatment.

    “If (the bill) becomes law, then we are creating new standards of legislative interference with physicians and parents as they deal with some of the most complex and sensitive matters involving young people,” Hutchinson said at a news conference.

    “The bill is over broad, extreme and does not grandfather those young people who are currently under hormone treatment,” he said “In other words, the young people who are currently under a doctor’s care will be without treatment when this law goes into effect.”​
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2021 at 10:41 AM
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  5. Tererun

    Tererun Troll princess and Magical Girl

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    I would imagine this law will be challenged immediately and the courts will put an emergency injunction on it to protect patients and physicians while it makes it's way up to being thrown out in the supreme court. If there is no precedent on it already there is little to no reason to legislate this away considering the medical world shows only benefits from treatments without any medical problems for prescription. The right does not even have the claim you are killing a child to go with considering how it actually saves lives from suicide when you allow children to transition.

    There is just no reason to even allow someone with no pert in the decision to be involved. This is purely a punitive law made to criminalize being trans.

    But maybe we should listen to @RickDeckard and his Qackanon friends when making medical decisions for people they do not know. Masks and puberty blockers/blood pressure medicine are murder according to rick and his trumpian friends.
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  6. shootER

    shootER Insubordinate...and churlish Administrator

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  7. 14thDoctor

    14thDoctor Listen here, Jack

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    And Federal Farmer isn't a Fox News Republican, yet you both seem to have the talking points memorized just the same. :chris:
    Nova has been schooling all of us, over and over, for years now, pretty much every time this topic comes up. :shrug:
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  8. Order2Chaos

    Order2Chaos Ultimate... Immortal Administrator

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    This premise is correct, but incomplete. It ignores that treatment of gender dysphoria is contingent on determination that what might initially present as gender dysphoria, actually is. You're ignoring the part where doctors and psychologists make sure of that. Lots of people who think they might have it turn out to have anxiety, bipolar disorder, depression, and/or be homosexual.

    Puberty blockers are NOT a radical biological intervention. That's the whole point of them, to pause a radical (if natural) biological process until they have the capacity to give informed consent (or not) to actual radical changes, either a late but natural puberty, or HRT and beyond. There isn't enough evidence to say for certain, but what evidence we have strongly suggests they're basically side effect-free and completely reversible. So a kid develops secondary sexual characteristics later than their peers. What's the big deal, even if it does turn out to not be gender dysphoria? If it does (and psychological treatment continues after puberty blockers are started to determine if it is if there's any lingering questions), the help is quite measurable, as is the psychological harm from failure to do it.
    You have to show the actual possible harm. Where is it? Even if you had some reason to think that 90% of kids who receive puberty blockers don't need them, and need some other treatment instead, a) you'd still have to show the harm that would be doing, and b) you'd have to show that receiving puberty blockers was preventing receiving the other needed treatments. You've got nothing here, AFAICT, beyond your fallacious appeal to naturalism in your first post. Not all biological interventions are inherently bad if they're unnecessary.

    I am so very, very far from supporting any sort of identity politics. This is about individuality and self-actualization, and creating a choice for people where there had previously been none because of the timing of secondary sex characteristics relative to mental maturity. Maybe some people do push it for the wrong reasons, but that doesn't make their conclusion wrong, and I'm not seeing that here, certainly not from Nova or Tererun.
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  9. Tererun

    Tererun Troll princess and Magical Girl

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    There are certain things people are neglecting here. The children with gender dysphoria are not ok in just not doing it. This is along the lines of a compulsion and not just something you get over. It fucks you up to not express yourself as your gender. There is this idea these kids are just playing or going through something they will get over. It is not just curiosity. To resist shit like this causes other psychosis.

    This is not some new trend. We know people born with gender dysphoria who try to repress it psychologically damage themselves. You don't just go out and buck society without a fight. To say no one wants to do this is false. The truth is no one wants to face the prejudice and hate of society like this, especially at such a young age. people self mutilate, kill themselves, and become extremely self destructive if they cannot do this. In all of those cases allowing a child or adult to go this path when they know it is true makes them much happier. You cannot fix the world around them that will be prejudiced towards them, but they will face it better, happier, and stronger as the gender they are supposed to be.

    This idea that @RickDeckard may think is there about what gender dysphoria is, is wrong. I do not know what it is like to be happy in my body. I have never had it. It is there in my first memories. I did not decide to be this way. The more I tried to put it away, the more it just exploded out. I do not even like my sister and my mother's style, but I stole their clothing because it was my only outlet. Imagine what sort of fun that was when I was caught. Back when I was coming into my own there was no internet to buy clothing on. Do you know how scared I was to buy women's clothing? Do you know how much money I wasted back then figuring out what size I was because I was too damned afraid to return anything.

    Does any of that sound happy? Because guess what, it was better than not doing it. Do you know how much happier and better it would have been if my parents just bought me the clothing and let me be who I was? OMFG I am jealous of kids being allowed and encouraged to be themselves.

    you just do not experience it if you are cisgendered. It is a horrible thing to be forced to be the opposite gender which is why no trans person should ever want to push that on a cisgendered person. You might ask a person knowing how people are afraid to express themselves and might be looking for a person to help them, but you are not going to force them down that road. If they go down the road and make some mistakes with HRT things can be reversed to an extent. Puberty blockers only stop development which can occur later.

    Do not get involved with preventing a child from expressing their gender as they see it because you will be abusing them. Parents who do not allow their kid to be the gender they are are abusing their children. That goes for a parent forcing their child to be cisgendered when they are not, or that goes for a parent forcing their child to be trans when they are not. Do not abuse children with legislation limiting treatment for trans people. The medical field has standards of health and safety for prescribing hormone blockers, HRT, and SRS. These things are not new. They are well established treatments with drugs and surgery that have been around for generations. No, not generations hundreds of years ago when medicine was not great. Generations now when we have much better science and testing.

    This is not some identity politics bullshit. You guys need to stop politicizing medicine. Medicine is not political. People interfering in other's medicine is political. I will say medicine back decades ago was somewhat political and wrong as fuck when there were doctors forcing people to live cisgendered lives when they were obviously trans. You do not even want to read the horrible stories about what people did to themselves because doctors were conservative right wing assholes and denied treatment.
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  10. Fisherman's Worf

    Fisherman's Worf I am the Seaman, I am the Walrus, Qu-Qu-Qapla'!

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    We get it. You want to commit genocide. Stop fucking bragging about it, it's not attractive.
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  11. Fisherman's Worf

    Fisherman's Worf I am the Seaman, I am the Walrus, Qu-Qu-Qapla'!

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    Yes, we're all familiar with your letterhead. Not sure why you forgot to include any content in this post.
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  12. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

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    So, thanks for this response.

    Cool. I don't doubt that this is a real condition that can be diagnosed by doctors, including in children. Although as you say, like anything it could be confused with or mixed up with something else.

    Since puberty kicks in a something like eleven and informed consent is possible at sixteen (eighteen?) we're talking about "pausing" puberty for years. Preventing a teenagers physiology from developing normally in this way is to my mind, a very radical intervention. And it seems to me that you're overstating what the research says. There is a limited volume of this, and an active debate among medical professionals - including on things like bone development and brain development. The hormones associated with puberty have an impact on things other than secondary sexual characteristics.

    Example.
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2021 at 4:21 AM
  13. Order2Chaos

    Order2Chaos Ultimate... Immortal Administrator

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    Paywalled. Can you link to the source paper?
  14. Tererun

    Tererun Troll princess and Magical Girl

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    I still do not see you addressing the fact it makes trans people's lives better. I still don't see why you, and everyone else who is not the patient, doctor, or family is involved. Oh, and less growth like a man would be awesome for a trans girl. You do realize once those dense bones grow they don't shrink. If you make a mistake you don't end up 6 feet tall and wide as a tank. The person going through these things wants this.

    You are talking about the desired effect of hormone blockers. The density thing might suck a little bit, but it is within the female realm. What part of do not want to develop male characteristics do you not understand? These fucking effects are the desired ones.

    How can you be so fucking obtuse? Why do people always disappoint me more and more. Do you know that taking puberty blockers blocks the effects of puberty? Holy fucking shit, I think you figured out why doctors prescribe them. You quoted a fucking article which shows the puberty blockers working as intended? That is what the patient wants. That is helping them to develop more as a female rather than as a male.

    [​IMG]
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  15. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

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    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7433770/

    And no, @Tererun. The effect is not just making trans-women "less like a man" - although that in itself would mean the intervention is not "completely reversible" as @Order2Chaos suggests.
    Both male and female hormones during puberty assist in bone formation. Blocking these and leaving the individual in a pre-pubescent state for several additional years seems to lead to lower bone density both for males and for females than those in their peer groups. Again, it's not clear if this could correct itself later and more research is needed. But pretending that delaying puberty from eleven to sixteen isn't going to have potentially serious side-effects seems foolish to me.

    There are similar reports highlighting concerns around brain development, weight gain, fertility...
  16. Diacanu

    Diacanu Comicmike. Writer

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    The whole scenario of a kid feeling like the opposite gender, then changing their mind, and regretting the blockers, rests on the assumption that being trans is a delusion, or a fad, or something.
    Either way, this assumes it's frivolous.
    Yeah, it's frivolous if it's not happening to your comfortable ass.

    I got enough shit as a kid just for being a nerd in the 80's.
    As if I would have jumped onboard a fucking "trans fad" if there had been one.
    Come the fuck on.

    :rolleyes: :sigh:
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  17. steve2^4

    steve2^4 Aged Meat

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    this is why MDs, specialists should be involved and not the state legislature.
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  18. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

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    The majority of kids do change their minds.
    But stupid false binary is stupid. "Totally fixed at birth" and "delusion" are not the only options.
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  19. Diacanu

    Diacanu Comicmike. Writer

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    Yeah, so?
    I was braced for nasty.
    :shrug:

    Even if I had posted the recipe for a universal cancer cure, the answer wasn't going to be "good post, Dicky! :techman:".
    :lol:
  20. Diacanu

    Diacanu Comicmike. Writer

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    Oh, and...

    On their own, or due to bullying and social pressure?
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  21. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

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    Why don't you look it up and find out, rather than falsely declaring the phenomenon to be non-existent? There doesn't seem to be any point to me walking you through it, given your determination in this thread to ignore what I post.
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  22. 14thDoctor

    14thDoctor Listen here, Jack

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    I'm sure you have a reference for that? :chris:
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  23. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

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    Still not sure why I need to do your googling for you. There are multiple studies cited all over the place. Here's one.

    Interestingly, the intensity of GD in childhood is a good predictor that it will continue. But there is something going on here beyond a cohort of people being born in the wrong bodies, demanding reassignment.
  24. Diacanu

    Diacanu Comicmike. Writer

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    They're your claims to back up.
    We're not the ones trying to debunk transgenderism.
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  25. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

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    That's rich given your propensity to back up your own claims exclusively with giant emoji's.

    Back to the pithy strawmen. Oh well.
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2021 at 12:44 PM
  26. Lanzman

    Lanzman Vast, Cool and Unsympathetic Formerly Important

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    I wonder about this sometimes. I know, for example, that "queer for a year" in college is a Thing. A good chunk of the reason for children not being able to consent to things, to vote, to have other "adult" responsibilities is that their minds are not yet fully formed. Something that seems totally right and desirable at the age of eight will seem repulsive and icky at the age of ten. Things like that. So before I embrace the idea that little Timmy really wants to be little Tammy, I need to see a convincing period of consistency there. Kids have very strong tendencies to embrace fads or passing interests. Assuming a nominal lifespan of eighty years, deciding when you're six that you're the "wrong" gender and getting pumped full of hormone treatments to fix it could lead to a lot of problems down the road.
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  27. 14thDoctor

    14thDoctor Listen here, Jack

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    Transgendertrend.com?

    Is Breitbart down or something? :dayton:
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  28. Diacanu

    Diacanu Comicmike. Writer

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    Oh, excuse me, let me get the wording right.
    You're just asking questions.
    :diacanu:
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  29. Tererun

    Tererun Troll princess and Magical Girl

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    Do you understand they actually examine the patient's progress? You act like they give these things out like candy.

    Again,why are you involved?
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  30. Tererun

    Tererun Troll princess and Magical Girl

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    No they do not. Whatever you are reading is not in line with modern medicine.
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