Canada/China detentions

Discussion in 'The Red Room' started by Rimjob Bob, Dec 13, 2018.

  1. Rimjob Bob

    Rimjob Bob Classy Fellow

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    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-46548614

    At the beginning of this month, Canada arrested a Chinese telecom executive, on behalf of the US, for violating sanctions on Iran and other offenses. She is currently out on bail but awaiting extradition to the US.

    Now China has detained two high-profile Canadians on dubious "national security" grounds, pretty obvious retaliation for political purposes.

    China's rule of law is normally weak, but this seems like an extra bad time to be a Westerner in China. Glad I got out. :jayzus:
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  2. Asyncritus

    Asyncritus Expert on everything

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    Nevertheless, I fail to see how the U.S. has the right to arrest a Chinese citizen for dealing with Iran. The U.S. can impose all the sanctions it wants on Iran (whether they are justified is a different issue), but unless China does the same thing, a Chinese citizen is free to obey Chinese law, but should not have to obey U.S. law.
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  3. spot261

    spot261 I don't want the game to end

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    Yeah I didn't quite follow how that works either.

    I'm pretty sure I break the laws of lots of countries daily but as I'm not under their jurisdictions it matters not one jot.
  4. matthunter

    matthunter Has the strength of 20 men... 20 BIG men

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    It seems as if the case involves resale of US goods to Iran via Huawei:

  5. spot261

    spot261 I don't want the game to end

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    Does the US actually have the right to dictate what is done with US goods after they leave US hands or jurisdiction, sanctions or not?
  6. Rimjob Bob

    Rimjob Bob Classy Fellow

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    If a foreign company like Huawei chooses to do business with and in the US, they accept these rules. It's precisely their privileged position within the US market (and therefore under US jurisdiction) that they are abusing to deliver goods to Iran.
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2018
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  7. Asyncritus

    Asyncritus Expert on everything

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    And if they don't obey them, the U.S. is free not to do business with them any more.

    But I still don't see how a person who is neither a citizen nor a resident of the U.S. can be held criminally liable by U.S. laws.
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  8. Rimjob Bob

    Rimjob Bob Classy Fellow

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    Huawei operates in the US and has offices here. They are a resident.
  9. matthunter

    matthunter Has the strength of 20 men... 20 BIG men

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    Conditions of sale are legal. You bought a multipack of crisps or drink cans that says "not for individual resale"? It may be hard for them to check, but they can indeed enforce it if they can prove it.
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  10. spot261

    spot261 I don't want the game to end

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    Ok, fair enough, but those conditions surely rely on the sale taking place in the jurisdiction enforcing those conditions?

    This honestly comes as a surprise to me.
  11. TheBurgerKing

    TheBurgerKing The Monarch of Flavor

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    believe it or not, not everything is manufactured over seas, and what we manufacture here tends to be fairly sensitive equipment that could give foriegn countries the ability to manufacture some pretty nasty shit. Huawei probably sold Iran a fucking chemical weapon lab.
  12. oldfella1962

    oldfella1962 light & lethal

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    I asked the same question in another thread a few days ago - somebody explained it (maybe spaceturkey) but I don't remember the answer I got. It is pretty complicated, but true, it doesn't feel quite right to me either.
  13. matthunter

    matthunter Has the strength of 20 men... 20 BIG men

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    Truly? You think you could murder a US citizen in Iran and get away with it just because they say it's fine?

    They might say so. The US can have an arrest warrant out for you in any allied nation, so the moment you land there your ass is grass.

    Why do you think Assange had to throw himself on the mercy of the Ecuadorians? As long as you stay on non-allied turf you have a chance.

    Canada may talk a big game when it comes to NAFTA, but they don't like Iran any more than the US does.
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  14. We Are Borg

    We Are Borg Rey of sunshine

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    From the article in the OP:

    If those allegations are true, the United States government absolutely has jurisdiction.
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  15. Rimjob Bob

    Rimjob Bob Classy Fellow

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    What does this "Watched" icon mean, and who's watching? The Chinese Communist Party? :calli:

    Attached Files:

  16. Spaceturkey

    Spaceturkey you can't spell hatred without "red hat"

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    fairly sure it wasn't me... I haven't been paying attention to this other than a bit of a chuckle when I heard the Chinese wre boycotting "Canada Goose" clothing... they're a love'em or hate'em thing here given their animal abuse record (goose down and coyote pelts... look it up if you want more accurate info than I can provide)
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  17. Rimjob Bob

    Rimjob Bob Classy Fellow

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  18. Forbin

    Forbin Do you feel fluffy, punk?

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    Well that escalated quickly!
  19. oldfella1962

    oldfella1962 light & lethal

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    "Schellenberg, who is believed to be 36" :unsure: ummm........just how fucking hard can his age be to ascertain? Does it take Sherlock Holmes to figure that out? :chris:

    BTW while I support China's belief in "the right to a speedy trial" a one day trial ending in a death sentence is just a little bit too fast. Might want to put the brakes on that case Judge Ju Dee. Word to the wise - nothing wrong with being a tourist, but choose your destinations carefully. :yes:
  20. Ten Lubak

    Ten Lubak Salty Dog

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    I’m more concerned about the other 2 nationals that were arbitrarily detained than some scumbag who was smuggling 225kg of crystal meth
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  21. spot261

    spot261 I don't want the game to end

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    Why would anyone smuggle crystal meth?
  22. Marso

    Marso High speed, low drag.

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    Socialists, why would anyone want the kind of government China has?

    China's 'social credit.'

    The 'government' version of this is already the norm in China. Want to ride that 'public train?'
    Better hope your social media rating is high enough, princess!

    Yeah- all you 'big brother' embracers. Want more government? You're about to get all you can handle, baby. Welcome to the New World.

    Black Mirror- Nosedive
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2019
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  23. spot261

    spot261 I don't want the game to end

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    A premise of your post is that China represents a genuine socialist economy?
  24. Marso

    Marso High speed, low drag.

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    Well, not 'Venezuela' genuine, but maybe close enough, ultimately. Regardless of the economy, is that the government you want over you?
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  25. spot261

    spot261 I don't want the game to end

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    To be honest I've not fully watched the video yet, only the first minute or so in between chasing kids to get ready for school. The gist seemed to be that socially positive behaviours would be rewarded by economic advantages whereas anti social or criminal ones would be shamed? I'll post again when I've seen the whole thing but a question that springs to mind is why it would be so terrible to have a system which employs a carrot and not just the stick of criminal justice.

    As an aside though I'm not convinced it's realistic to call China a socialist state in practise anyway, but doing so would run into the problem of equating what is currently the worlds fastest growing economy with an allegedly fundamentally flawed economic model.One or the other would have to give.
  26. spot261

    spot261 I don't want the game to end

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    Ok, watched it and got to the guy and his train ticket which seems to be the most controversial illustration.

    I'm not sure what to think so I'll play the devil's advocate game here and see what you give me back.

    In the US most people can't use first class train travel either, because they can't afford it. The main difference is the currency being employed. Both are abstractions of someone's social worth but one is defined by their economic success,whereas the other is defined by their social conscience. In either case most people are disallowed a certain privilege by virtue of not meeting a socially defined numerical criteria, criteria they can actively seek by virtue of altering their behaviours in a positive manner.

    Both systems are open to corruption by any number of means and could be used to reward criminality. The public officials could be bribed or biased, but equally it's hard to make that case and disregard the wide and varied extent of criminal behaviours observed exploiting the weaknesses of capitalism.

    Conversely both systems could be reliant on the goodwill of others to reward someone with the "currency" in question. Equally both systems could lead to an unpopular person suffering in terms of that currency. A small business owner is by and large reliant on the positive regard of their customers to secure business, customers who are likely also members of their community.
  27. NotDayton Kitchens

    NotDayton Kitchens Wonderful, Loving Husband & Father

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    Maybe the US can use this as a reason to bomb China somehow.

    Otherwise why would anyone give a rats ass?
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  28. Rimjob Bob

    Rimjob Bob Classy Fellow

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    There's not much socialist about China these days. It's a single-party authoritarian corporatist-capitalist oligarchy with bad inequality. Pretty much the same as the US. :)

    We already have a running thread on China's social credit system.
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  29. Ten Lubak

    Ten Lubak Salty Dog

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    .....to sell it for profit
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  30. Captain X

    Captain X Responsible cookie control

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