Discussion in 'The Red Room' started by oldfella1962, Jul 30, 2019.
I thought that was in a night club.
covered in post # 31 - Glen handled this terrifying scene like a pro!
Tuckerfan is wrong in that it was a pro-gun march, but a number of participants were carrying weapons.
Okay, but that sounds like an ambush. Can't really react to that unless you're expecting it to happen.
How many people go to Wallyworld expecting to get shot at by some fuckwit with a gun?
That's a big place. If someone gets shootey on aisle 2, someone on aisle 7 can react. You can't ambush an entire Gaston County, NC WalMart. That isn't gonna happen.
I'm sure the shooter was a Very Fine Person who Loves Our Country Very Much.
Well, in that big a crowd it would be foolish to assume were there.
Good guys do stop plenty of bad guys with guns each year. Some with just a display of the weapon and some with shooting.
Here's a couple recent ones:
Mass shootings however are an either-or scenario.
If they are stopped before they get going no one hears about them or cares. (stopped by police or citizen)
If they are not stopped, like this current one, than we get the trope "good guy with a gun can stop a bad guy with a gun is bullshit" card played by the usual anti-gun types.
Also let's look at active shooter scenarios:
#1 You usually have no idea where the shooting is. You can hear it but you often don't see it.
#2 Unless the shooter is dressed like the North Hollywood guys who shot it out with the LAPD in 93 you might not even realize that you're near the shooter unless you see the gun. If you're running you might not even realize you passed right by him until you see it on video. (if you see video)
#3 If the family is with you the priority should be getting them to safety. I'm not holding it against any armed person who makes their family the priority.
#4 I think at this point most people understand that in a active shooting the police are coming in hot and having a gun out ups your chance of getting shot. Elwood said it above that he would put rounds into someone in such a situation.
So I say the trope card played by Nova is invalid.
You mean, like if they were prepared for such an event happening, and you know, not out with their family buying diapers and shit in a place they go to all the time and don’t think about anything ever happening there because it never does.
I'm assuming if they're carrying in the first place, they're prepared for such an event happening. Why else would they be carrying?
Tell that to my brother. He's very pro-gun, and this is the meme that he posted.
Here's a link to the Facebook page he got the image from. Does that look like it's hosted by a bunch of gun grabbers? Or does it look like it's hosted by folks who are lifetime members of the NRA?
Oh sure you can find people on the internet who talk big.
Hell you could probably find plenty of posts on this board, even by me, that talk big about shooting it out with the bad guy.
But the internet ain't real life.
No one knows what they will do in such a situation until it actually happens to them.
I carry a gun all the time. I went to Walmart today after the shooting. The thought did cross my mind on what would I do if something popped off. Reality is that I have no idea. I know what I think I would do but since it's never happened to me......
So yes Nova's trope card is still invalid because as I said mass shootings are an either-or scenario.
Either the shooter gets stopped before they get going and the result is that you, Nova, and other anti-gun types pay it no real attention OR the shooter doesn't get stopped, racks up a body count and than you, Nova, and others now play the trope "a good guy with a gun will stop a bad guy with a gun is bullshit" card.
I think I'm missing your point. I'm with your brother. The last thing this kind of thing provokes me to do is to not carry.
Idiots manifesto if one wants to read it.
I agree completely.
At least you're honest enough to recognize that.
Mass shootings are an either-or scenario, but Nova's not the originator of the trope. Nor are gun grabbers.
Unfortunately, the official NRA store is out of stock on the shirts, but here's a picture of what it says
Except that we do. We point out that this often isn't the case and raise issues about the availability of guns and how easy it is to get them.
As does the NRA. Remember, their idea about preventing school shootings is to arm teachers, which Elwood has pointed out isn't necessarily a good idea.
I do want to point out two things:
#1 I think there is a difference between city Walmart's and more rural ones. You mention Gaston County. Wikipedia says it has about 200,000 people. My county had almost 2 million. I can assure you the number of non-gun carrying people probably is far higher in my county than Gaston County. It's probably the same with El Paso. El Paso has almost 900,000 people in it.
#2 I'd still think the Walmart in Gaston County could get ambushed like the one in El Paso was. I think you think more people carry guns in Gaston County than actually do carry guns. There is roughly 605,000 CCW holders in North Carolina. I don't think the majority are in Gaston County.
I never said Nova is the origin of the trope. Just that Nova is playing it to say that it's bullshit and this shooting is proof of it being bullshit.
But it's not. Plenty of bad guys get stopped by good guys with a gun.
That doesn't mean that all bad guys get stopped. Some like this bastard in El Paso don't.
Yabut I'm talking about open carry. I have no idea how many people concealed carry in Gaston County WalMarts, because...well...they're concealed carrying. I can tell how many people are open carrying for obvious reasons...and it's a lot. It's surprisingly a lot. Disturbingly a lot even. You probably have to see it to believe it.
I'll take your word for it. I didn't know open carry was legal in NC. It's not in Florida.
Open carry has been legal here since 2015(?).
In all that time I've seen exactly one person doing it and that was just a couple of months ago.
Yeah, it's legal here. There's an old guy around here that has a big bushy beard, rides a scooter, and carry's a nickle plated SSA in a full on western rig.
In fact (and I think I've mentioned it before) in the couple of years since they've removed restrictions on how big a bladed weapon you can carry I've seen far more people with hunting knives on their belt than I have people carrying pistols openly.
It was legal in TN when I lived there, and I hardly ever saw anybody doing it. When I moved back to NC, I was shocked at how ubiquitous it was. I've seen kids that I'm dubious as to their majority open carrying here.
Have you never heard of the word "complacency"?
Ever read up on con-artists? Like the really ballsy kind? I'm not talking about the guy on the corner running a three-card monte, but the guys who do things like pretend to be airline pilots, military officers, or whatever? The reason, and they admit this, that they're able to get away with what they do for so long is because how complacent people are. Not just a small number of the population, but every human being on the face of the Earth. Most of what you do is routine, so much so that you don't even think about it. When you take a shower in the morning, do you consciously think about grabbing the soap and how you're going to lather yourself up, or do you just do it? When you walk into a place you've been to a dozen times before, you do think about scanning for the exits, in case there's a fire and you have to escape? Heck, do you even do that when you're in a place for the first time? I'd be willing to be that you don't.
Somebody who conceal carries is going to fall into the same kind of routine. They're not going to be thinking about strapping on their gun, they're just going to do it by reflex. Why? Because that's what they've conditioned themselves to do. What they haven't conditioned themselves to do (even if they've had training) is to be prepared, at any moment, to actually have to use that weapon in an active shooter type situation. And it takes a lot of training, which has to be done routinely, to keep yourself really sharp. I got schooled by a cop one time because I laughed at a news account of how a number of police officers, firing at close range, failed to hit a suspect with the majority of their rounds. The cop pointed out that most officers spend the bulk of their time doing routine things like filling out paperwork and mundane traffic stops, with very limited time to practice shooting at the range. They were better trained and conditioned to do the routine stuff of policework, than they were at hitting a target.
Now, that doesn't mean that conditioned reflexes can't be valuable in an active shooter situation. A friend of mine is ex-military and ~10 years after he'd been out of service he was in a bar that some nutter decided to shoot up. The military training my friend had saved his life, but it wasn't the skills with a gun that did it. When the nutter walked into the bar, my friend immediately flipped the table over and hid behind it. He didn't even realize that he'd done it until the bullets started hitting the table and things around him. That's a bit different than grabbing a gun and hitting a target. (I should point out that he'd also been stationed in some pretty rough combat zones, so he wasn't like someone who'd only spent their time in service in safe places. He'd had experience of what it was like to be under fire, and not merely gone through training where they fire live ammunition.)
Look, I'm not trying to say that just because you're concealed carrying you're ready to take on ninjas at a moment's notice. What I'll say right now is that there is nothing that you can say to convince me that someone who is armed in aisle 7 of a WalMart couldn't possibly respond to an active shooter in aisle 2 of said WalMart. The link to anywhere on the internet that can convince me of that does not exist.
Again, the NRA says that arming teachers, which would be a "good guy with a gun" situation, is the solution to school shootings. It ain't. It ain't the solution to any mass shooting situation, as Elwood pointed out.
How many? And how does that compare to the number of those who don't?
I don't see why, however, we should just simply accept this, and not attempt to do something to reduce the number of mass shootings. And, I do believe that we can do this without taking every gun in the country. Let's take universal background checks. Most Americans are in favor of them, and if they stopped one mass shooting (as defined by the US government in which 3 or more people are shot or killed), would you think that was worth it? Why or why not?
The soldier and his partner who got those kids out of the area were carrying, but didn't draw weapons until they'd gotten the children to safety.
Sure, and in a universe where almost anything is possible, I could bang Taylor Swift (I don't live too far from one of her houses and I know her favorite place to eat in Nashville, not to mention she's known to shop at the Wallyworld not too far from me), but I think we can both agree that the odds of that happening are pretty fucking slim.
Unless you're talking about the odds against someone armed being on aisle 7 to begin with, then I can't agree with you.
Separate names with a comma.