Defund the Police

Discussion in 'The Red Room' started by The Ghost of Crazy Horse, Jun 6, 2020.

  1. MikeH92467

    MikeH92467 RadioNinja

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    Ithaca is the home of Cornell University. Interesting idea. If we're truly going to reform American policing, there are going to have to be some communities taking the lead and you can be damn sure there are going to be a lot of failed experiments along the way.
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  2. Tuckerfan

    Tuckerfan BMF Staff Member Moderator

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  3. oldfella1962

    oldfella1962 high speed, low drag

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    awesome! I bet something like that will be an overwhelming success in neighborhoods with very high violent crime rates. :yes: Have you signed up yet Tucker? I think you'd be a good fit for such a job. I have a few extra clipboards I can give you.
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  4. oldfella1962

    oldfella1962 high speed, low drag

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    Really? You don't say! But I think inner city Baltimore & Detroit will work out well. Maybe you can head out there and volunteer your services!
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  5. Tuckerfan

    Tuckerfan BMF Staff Member Moderator

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    I don't live in Ithaca, NY and have no desire to live in NYS. If I was going to live in a cold-ass fucking state, it'd be someplace like Washington or Oregon where there's been drug decriminalization. Nor do I have the necessary educational background to qualify myself for such jobs, even if I have more post-secondary education than is required for policing. As Dirty Harry once said, "A man's got to know his limitations."

    What should be obvious to everyone (though clearly not to you for reasons I'll get to in another thread) is that the model used for policing in the US is broken and needs to be adjusted. I don't know if what Ithaca is trying will work, but I do know that it is vitally important that we try different methods to find a better way.
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  6. MikeH92467

    MikeH92467 RadioNinja

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    Non-sequitor. Your facts are unco-ordinated. :madcookie:
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  7. Tuckerfan

    Tuckerfan BMF Staff Member Moderator

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    I'm stunned that local law enforcement has done this.
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  8. Raoul the Red Shirt

    Raoul the Red Shirt Professional bullseye

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    With all due respect to a law professor who is undoubtedly smarter and better versed in the law than I am, if she thinks SCOTUS is quietly going to do anything, let alone something like ending or reforming qualified immunity, she hasn't been paying attention. From looking at some of the comments in her twitter thread, this doesn't really seem to be a fundamental shift. Even before the case that this one cites, Taylor, you didn't have to have a case that was on all fours with a prior case.

    Taylor was a case where I don't think there's a valid argument for qualified immunity. The inmate's claim was that he spent six days in a conditions that were clearly deplorable, including massive amounts of shit in his cell such that he did not eat or drink for four days for fear that the food or drink would be contaminated and that he ended up sleeping naked in sewage.

    SCOTUS ruled that there is no need for a precise case that precisely says "forcing someone to stay in a shit-covered cell for six days to the point where they do not feel safe eating or drinking and where the person sleeps in sewage is unconstitutional" since that is obvious, therefore QI doesn't apply. There is also a difference in context. As Taylor shows, there is an express SCOTUS decision from 1997 and then quoted in 2002 that holds that in the prison context, you can be on notice that something violates the Constitution even in "novel factual circumstances."

    So although I haven't seen the latest decision, it doesn't sound like it represents a shift from established QI precedent.
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  9. Raoul the Red Shirt

    Raoul the Red Shirt Professional bullseye

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    I am hopeful that the Ithaca experiment will yield results.

    Unlike a lot of the pushes to defund the police, it starts from a place that makes theoretical sense to me.

    Many things current cops do have no need of a gun or use of force. But some things do.

    Many things cops currently do they aren't particularly well trained for.

    By creating a department where the emphasis is on civilianizing where one can while understanding that sometimes you need armed cops, you hopefully get the best of both worlds and at a cost savings.

    The thing about experiments, though, is that there is a risk of failure. It's certainly possible to get the worst of both worlds. For instance, it doesn't really do anyone much good to have civilians who end up mimicking the worst attributes of cops, or who end up finding themselves routinely in situations they aren't equipped to handle, or who end up getting stabbed in the back through resentment by cops.
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  10. Tuckerfan

    Tuckerfan BMF Staff Member Moderator

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  11. oldfella1962

    oldfella1962 high speed, low drag

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    if these mental health crisis folk do it completely sans police backup present I salute their bravery! :salute: 9 out of 10 times the mental health breakdown sufferers won't go ape-shit and wreak a path of destruction. But that tenth one might be a doozy. Godspeed to the mental health crews!
  12. tafkats

    tafkats That'll put marzipan in your pie plate, bingo! Moderator

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    And nine times out of 10 the cops won't shoot the person for no particular reason, but the tenth...
  13. oldfella1962

    oldfella1962 high speed, low drag

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    yes that does happen, but the vast majority of the time (google the actual statistics from a variety of credible sources) there was indeed a valid reason.
    That said my prediction is this new approach will be a success in some locations, and a failure in others. It's not a "one size fits all" and it will take a while wherever it's employed to fully access the effectiveness. I would like to see all political agendas and spin taken out of the equation when the dust settles, but this being America that's highly unlikely.
  14. Jenee

    Jenee Ind. Jenee of Winterfell

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    I suppose “a valid reason” is a matter of perspective.
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  15. MikeH92467

    MikeH92467 RadioNinja

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    What? Being black doesn't qualify as a "valid reason"? :rolleyes:
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  16. oldfella1962

    oldfella1962 high speed, low drag

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    I already offered a solution for those that think it's all about race - I want to double down on it: disarm the white cops. Too easy, problem solved.
    Never again will a black person be shot by a white cop. Desperate times call for desperate measures as they say.
  17. tafkats

    tafkats That'll put marzipan in your pie plate, bingo! Moderator

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    And then if anyone's ever in a shootout with the cops, they'll know to take out the Black ones first.

    Seems like "don't hire white supremacists, and stop resisting training on de-escalation and recognition of implicit biases" would be a better plan.
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  18. oldfella1962

    oldfella1962 high speed, low drag

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    A shoot out with the cops? :huh: I thought suspects only shoot it out with cops because the cops are too heavy handed and intimidating? That's what I keep hearing from the left.
    As for your last sentence even if one black person was shot by the most "woke" passive cop on the force (no matter what manner of violence the suspects were inflicting upon cops & civilians alike) you still wouldn't be satisfied. It would still be all over the news 24/7 - change my mind.
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  19. tafkats

    tafkats That'll put marzipan in your pie plate, bingo! Moderator

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    You think that because when you hear "police in this country have a disturbing tendency to end up killing Black people when they don't need to," and your brain seems to translate it to "ALL COPS SPEND ALL DAY RUNNING AROUND LOOKING FOR BLACK PEOPLE TO SHOOT AND DOING NOTHING ELSE," for some reason that defies understanding.
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  20. oldfella1962

    oldfella1962 high speed, low drag

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    post #1095
  21. tafkats

    tafkats That'll put marzipan in your pie plate, bingo! Moderator

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    That's not what he said.
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  22. Ancalagon

    Ancalagon outta my way Administrator Formerly Important

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  23. Tuckerfan

    Tuckerfan BMF Staff Member Moderator

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  24. Tuckerfan

    Tuckerfan BMF Staff Member Moderator

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  25. Bickendan

    Bickendan Custom Title Administrator Faceless Mook Writer

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    I'll tell you what it indicates: The mayor got gassed last night and gassed someone this morning :bailey:
  26. shootER

    shootER Insubordinate...and churlish Administrator

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  27. oldfella1962

    oldfella1962 high speed, low drag

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    the comment about the "yo mamma jokes" was cringe-worthy. :facepalm: Yeah, that's the kind of thing a pissed off demonstrator or rioter might cut loose with when the shit hits the fan.
    It's pretty much the same as "fuck you pig! I hope you die you worthless motherfucking murdering piece of shit racist!" :shakefist:
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  28. Tuckerfan

    Tuckerfan BMF Staff Member Moderator

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  29. oldfella1962

    oldfella1962 high speed, low drag

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  30. Raoul the Red Shirt

    Raoul the Red Shirt Professional bullseye

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    It would probably indicate that there were some apples-to-oranges comparisons, some cherry picking and -- even given the benefit of all doubt -- some question about whether Portland's relative success was due to more efficient and effective policing or any number of other factors.