Defund the Police

Discussion in 'The Red Room' started by The Ghost of Crazy Horse, Jun 6, 2020.

  1. Raoul the Red Shirt

    Raoul the Red Shirt Professional bullseye

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    The First Amendment guarantees the right of protestors to say "Fuck you, pig! I hope you die, you worthless motherfucking murdering piece of shit racist!"

    It is hard for me to envision that this does not get struck down as unconstitutional. The authors tried to give it a fig leaf by saying the insults need to be such that they would have "a direct tendency to provoke a violent response from the perspective of a reasonable and prudent person"

    But that standard first fails for vagueness. And second, it fails because it is targeting a specific kind of speech that is directed at police officers.
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  2. oldfella1962

    oldfella1962 high speed, low drag

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    IMHO cops should have a thick skin. It should be a job requirement. If they don't have the discipline to deal with insults they shouldn't be cops. I don't know the specifics of what kind of training the average cop goes through, and many programs vary quite a bit from city-to-city. But maybe it should be like army basic training on steroids as far as the seriousness, harshness and stressfulness of the training. It should weed out a lot of people who don't have the intestinal fortitude and mental toughness to keep their shit together. Obviously the skillset and tactics would differ greatly from the military, because being a cop has it's own requirements and strategies. Bottom line the training should be so intense that it takes total commitment to being a cop and staying a cop through constant retraining and recertification on essential tasks and new tasks added to their job.

    That said I'm not a cop - Elwood could offer his insights I'm sure.
  3. Elwood

    Elwood I know what I'm about, son.

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    "Sticks and stones may break my bones but names can never hurt me" is a lie. Words hurt. But, there's no way this is Constitutional. Getting called every name under the sun is part of the job. If you can't handle that, you need to find another job. :clyde:
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  4. oldfella1962

    oldfella1962 high speed, low drag

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    So is there any realistic police training that involves incredibly nasty outraged citizens cursing/insulting/spitting at/pelting with hard objects/tear gassing them etc. at the cops to train them in how to deal with such situations? I would think there would be a great deal of this kind of training since it's something any cop might have to face at any time.
  5. Shirogayne

    Shirogayne 1/06 Was An Inside Job Formerly Important

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    I once got fired for putting in insulting comments about a client at a to job that the bloke was never even gonna read. Rightfully so.

    I feel like cops who are trained for this shit should be held to at least the same standards as a call center rep :clyde:
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  6. Elwood

    Elwood I know what I'm about, son.

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    You just outlined two or three very different situations. Is there training for being called mean names? No, none beyond "suck it up, buttercup." Because that's all it should take. But, spitting and/or pelting are very different things than words. There is training for that...
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  7. Shirogayne

    Shirogayne 1/06 Was An Inside Job Formerly Important

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    Also, anyone who served two days in the military can tell you the most abuse you'll endure is from your leadership, yet in spite one in every three commands on the Navy coming up short in more, it's been a while since anyone's shot up their chiefs or divisional officers or COs :shrug:

    It's almost like cops are attracted to the job so they can get away with being bullies. :thinking:
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  8. oldfella1962

    oldfella1962 high speed, low drag

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    disagree with that first part of the first sentence somewhat. In the navy you might never have to endure abuse. Not many sailors find themselves surrounded by disgruntled, desperate civilians and refugees and whatnot way out in the ocean. But in the army yes indeed you will occasionally find yourself deployed and in a serious shitstorm if you stay in long enough. You better be ready to take some non-lethal (hopefully!) physical abuse and of course intense verbal abuse and keep your cool.
  9. Tuckerfan

    Tuckerfan BMF Staff Member Moderator

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    Yes, it's called working in retail. Where you can be fired because some Karen complained about something that you had no control over. (Such as they couldn't sit outside because it was raining.)
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  10. Raoul the Red Shirt

    Raoul the Red Shirt Professional bullseye

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    Also, spitting and pelting officers are actual crimes that do not bring into play First Amendment protections. They are called battery.
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  11. oldfella1962

    oldfella1962 high speed, low drag

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    :salute: To everyone here on wordforge who ever worked retail. I'd rather dodge bullets, take an ass whipping, wear a suit & tie, anything but retail, sales or fast food. :shep:
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  12. oldfella1962

    oldfella1962 high speed, low drag

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    True, I get that, but can cops just break ranks to chase after everybody who might do these things when the shit is hitting the fan? Sometimes cops have to hold the line at all costs.
  13. Shirogayne

    Shirogayne 1/06 Was An Inside Job Formerly Important

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    I worked in what passes for retail on the ship. I've legit seen a master chief all but stamp his feet for ordering the "wrong" Crystal Lite and had people get angry when we pulled into port and half the shit we placed an order for was given to the carrier that pulled in a few hrs ahead of us. :brood:

    All of that aside, no, putting up with bad leadership isn't the same as bully customers. It's worse because you can't escape, short of one of you transferring or leaving in a pine box.

    The job I have now wasn't one I wanted, but I had heard we could tell customers in polite terms to calm their tits or else we can't help them and can hang up if they insist on being cunts. If I leave this job, that's pretty much it for me and call centers ever again.

    I'd love a career that keeps me far away from the public but all of those are minimum wage warehouse jobs or six figure positions and seemingly little in between. 95 percent of the entry level IT jobs are troubleshooting with live customers and nope.
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  14. Jenee

    Jenee Ind. Jenee of Winterfell

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    And why is that? Is it because of the lousy pay?

    Or

    Is it because people feel like they can shit on those people because they make minimum wage?

    And, if it’s the latter, is that why you are against raising the minimum wage? - because you feel someone should do those jobs AND be forced to feel the shame of it every day so that you can feel good about yourself for not having to live that life?
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  15. oldfella1962

    oldfella1962 high speed, low drag

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    Did I ever say I was against the minimum wage? :waiting:
  16. Elwood

    Elwood I know what I'm about, son.

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    Well, that was sort of my point, but I didn’t make it terribly clear.
  17. Raoul the Red Shirt

    Raoul the Red Shirt Professional bullseye

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    I was crystal on what you were saying. I should have just responded to OF's post directly, but the alert came up for yours.
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  18. Shirogayne

    Shirogayne 1/06 Was An Inside Job Formerly Important

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    You could just say it now instead of dancing around the issue. :clyde:
  19. NAHTMMM

    NAHTMMM Conversant in dark parables

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    Have you looked into quality assurance/control or being a machine operator in manufacturing? Can get noisy depending on the environment but should be well above minimum wage.
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  20. MikeH92467

    MikeH92467 RadioNinja

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    Retail sucks. The "customer is always right" is horseshit. So is the cable company attitude of "the customer is always wrong." Like so much of American life that divide is way too wide and nobody seems to have the knack for hitting the right balance.
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2021
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  21. Tuckerfan

    Tuckerfan BMF Staff Member Moderator

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    That is hugely contingent upon where one lives and if the place is unionized. For example, I've done QA as well as having been a machine operator (not to mention being a machinist) and outside of a unionized shop, they don't pay any more than an entry-level warehouse job. It's better than minimum wage, but it's still not a living wage.

    If you can get into a unionized shop, then you'll do remarkably better than you will in a non-unionized job. Even if you're doing unskilled labor. Right now, I'm making more as an unskilled worker in a unionized job than I did (adjusting for inflation) in non-unionized machine shops a decade ago.
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  22. oldfella1962

    oldfella1962 high speed, low drag

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    I'm not dancing around it. To be honest I rarely think much about the minimum wage controversy because it's not on my radar at this point in my working life.
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  23. Ancalagon

    Ancalagon outta my way Administrator Formerly Important

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  24. MikeH92467

    MikeH92467 RadioNinja

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    But...but...ANTIFA....BLM riots!!! The socialists!!!! :ohnoes:
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  25. Raoul the Red Shirt

    Raoul the Red Shirt Professional bullseye

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    Does anyone know what the actual numbers are?

    'm curious if we're talking 10 officer involved shootings out of 30 total homicides versus 2 officer involved shootings out of 6.

    Also, that there are X number of cases of officers shooting people doesn't inherently mean that X is too many. A single shooting is too many if it's unjustified, and while ideally there would be as few situations where officers do have to shoot, some shootings are presumably unavoidable and justified.

    Yes, more details could come out about some of these shootings that render them problematic.

    But one of them officers shot someone who allegedly was an active shooter and another involved a mentally disturbed man who refused commands to stop and ran at the cops with a knife. Both have associated bodyworn camera.

    https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/po...-underway-seattle/KTXNVNGDL5EQJIPJRAFWKHN7WE/

    https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/shooting-investigation-underway-seattle/OEXSKJMZQBFQ3HC7RDY5FBLBLA/
  26. oldfella1962

    oldfella1962 high speed, low drag

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    interesting! Is that a typical ratio for Seattle? I wonder about other cities, like Baltimore, for example.
  27. oldfella1962

    oldfella1962 high speed, low drag

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    Talk about stacking the deck Anc! :dayton: The year has barely got started and Seattle hasn't had enough homicides to get a good data base. Over a year's time I fucking GUARANTEE homicides committed by police won't be 30 percent of the total. Lets put this into perspective. I'll pick a recent year let's say 2018, with the homicide rates based on homicides per 100,000 people:

    Seattle 4.3
    Atlanta 17.74
    Baltimore 50.5

    Baltimore has about 300 homicides total per year in a typical year. If they had 100 people killed by the cops - in one year - I think we'd hear about it. Actually about 2 percent of the homicides are committed by police. Even one is too many, but that 30 percent rate in Seattle is epic, biblical cherry-picking. :dayton:
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2021
  28. Ancalagon

    Ancalagon outta my way Administrator Formerly Important

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  29. oldfella1962

    oldfella1962 high speed, low drag

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    whoa....dude....imagine if this story - and his picture - makes the front page of the newspaper that this guy will soon be delivering! Mind BLOWN!

    :calli:

    serling.jpg
  30. MikeH92467

    MikeH92467 RadioNinja

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    The New York Times is out with a long story that a lot of people won't read, but will dismiss out of hand, on police handling of protests in the wake of the George Floyd killing. Some excerpts:

    In city after city, the reports are a damning indictment of police forces that were poorly trained, heavily militarized and stunningly unprepared for the possibility that large numbers of people would surge into the streets, moved by the graphic images of Mr. Floyd’s death under a police officer’s knee.

    The reports are strikingly similar, a point made by the Indianapolis review, which said that officers’ responses “were not dissimilar to what appears to have occurred in cities around the country.” Of the outside reviews, only the police department in Baltimore was credited with handling protests relatively well. The department deployed officers in ordinary uniforms and encouraged them “to calmly engage in discussion” with protesters, the report said.

    Reviewers more often found that officers behaved aggressively, wearing riot gear and spraying tear gas or “less-lethal” projectiles in indiscriminate ways, appearing to target peaceful demonstrators and displaying little effort to de-escalate tensions. In places like Indianapolis and Philadelphia, reviewers found, the actions of the officers seemed to make things worse.

    Police departments in some cities have fought back against the findings, arguing that officers were asked to confront unruly crowds who lit fires, smashed shop windows and sometimes attacked the police. Business owners, downtown residents and elected leaders demanded a strong response against protesters who were often never held accountable, the police have said.

    “Heaping blame on police departments while ignoring the criminals who used protests as cover for planned and coordinated violence almost guarantees a repeat of the chaos we saw last summer,” said Patrick J. Lynch, president of the Police Benevolent Association in New York City.

    The reports repeatedly blamed police departments for escalating violence instead of taming it. At times, police looked as if they were on the front lines of a war. They often treated all protesters the same, instead of differentiating between peaceful protesters and violent troublemakers. In part, the reports acknowledged, that was because of the chaos. But it was also because the protests pitted demonstrators against officers, who became defensive and emotional in the face of criticism, some reports said.

    For decades, criminal justice experts have warned that warrior-like police tactics escalate conflict at protests instead of defusing it. Between 1967 and 1976, three federal commissions investigated protests and riots. All found that police wearing so-called “riot gear” or deploying military-style weapons and tear gas led to the same kind of violence police were supposed to prevent.


    “What we’ve been doing needs to be acknowledged as a failure,” said Norm Stamper, a former police chief in Seattle, who said he made some of the same missteps while trying to contain the World Trade Organization protests in Seattle in 1999, when tear gas unleashed by officers triggered an escalating backlash.

    Now, he looks back on that moment as one of his greatest regrets in decades in law enforcement. “We continue to make the same mistakes,” Mr. Stamper said. “We’ll be doing this time and time again in the years ahead, unless we are ready for a hard assessment.”
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