Discussion in 'Shelter Releases' started by Lanzman, Oct 27, 2018.
Really? Anyone got an actual, y'know, reason, or is this another just-because ban?
I can't comment as to Tasvir, but I Rule 8'd Dinner.
The same for Assvir.
Just FYI, I think y'all goofed on these. I think "Rule 8" is going to be more trouble than it's worth.
Dayton should be completely banned or have full access. While well intentioned, limited access is dumb and it sets a bad precedent.
You're not banning Dinner and Assvir, you're banning ideas (speech) in an otherwise annoying wrapper. That's dangerous given our history.
What happened to warnings? You've become ban happy.
I would like to suggest that fully half of us wouldn't have been allowed at our own board if this exceedingly silly rule had been in place at WF's inception. Jeriko and Storm wouldn't have lasted 30 seconds.
Dinner had so much rope he could have hanged a dozen posters just like himself, with plenty left over for a second roundup. Quite frankly, I think this was needed. He'd fallen so deep into his racism, misogyny, bigotry, and hatred that he had become a caricature of a caricature. Maybe permanent is a bit much, but the ban itself? Good decision.
Mmm, I see your point.
I disagree, at least in Dinner's case. As John notes, Dinner's consistantly made his case, to the point where even Dayton objected.
While it appears that way, both Dayton and Dinner have been warned in the past a few times each.
It is a sobering observation. I agree with it, incidentally, looking at how TK was 13 years ago. In my case, what I enjoyed or even tolerated then is different than now, and it could be a function of having been in retail for so long.
As far as Tasvir goes, I found him the most amusing of the recent bans, if only because we could mock him in return and of his intermittent log ins.
Dinner? Fuck him. Fuck his dehumanizing screed.
Dayton? Eh, yeah, Blue Room/Help Desk only might not have been the best route in retrospect.
If that's the case then the leadership, whomever they may be (I honestly don't know), needs to have a frank discussion about what they want WF to be. Frankly, WF was founded by asses who wanted the ability to be asses to other asses. Lets not kid ourselves about our origins. With the exception of @shootER, @Lanzman , and @Order2Chaos all of the founding members would have been eligible for bans under your new Rule 8 at one point or another including myself.
If you're going to take away the ability of the assholes to be assholes, WF no longer fills the niche it was created to fulfill. Now, don't get me wrong. I fully, totally, and completely support whomever "owns" the board's right to do whatever they see fit with it. But, lets not pretend this isn't leading up to a fundamental shift in the nature of what the board is, if it hasn't come to that point already.
I think it is reaching that point. I was saying something similar to this in the Red Room, that Wordforge seems to be rebranding. It can't be a bastion for free speech and be a place for people who are harassed elsewhere. Thanks to Google, among other internet advancements, we're no longer the island of misfit toys. Everyone can see what goes on here. The days of calling someone racial epithets, of encouraging people to commit suicide, those days are drawing to a close most places on the internet (well... what can be done about it anyway). Wordforge is going to have to make a decision.
Edit to add:
Yes, Wordforge HAS been about being able to flame people, but it was still in the sense of saying "I think gays are perverts," to which someone would respond "and I think you fucked your sister on Halloween." What it has become is so far beyond that, beyond debate, beyond fiery disagreement, and has descended into harassment.
So yes, Wordforge has a decision to make. It seems like they've essentially made it, and in doing so, will need to be clear on that so people can't keep complaining about uneven moderation. Er... more so.
The other thing you need to keep in mind is that our userbase is very small and we've all been posting together for a very long time (in internet terms). We are not Reddit, we're a small, smokey club where we all know each other and fling shit with reckless abandon. You try to sanitize it now, you'll wind up with a miniature repeat of the exodus from TNZ that started Wordforge in the first place.
One more observation, and I know I'm gonna hear about it - Wordforge is actually in danger of becoming a liberal echo chamber. There aren't a lot of conservative voices left here, and some of the ones that are here are also complete fuckin' retards like Federal Farmer. I know the default human bias is to surround oneself with similar opinions in order to feel part of the group, but that also is not what Wordforge was supposed to be. Even when the more reasonable conservatives try to have a dialogue, the snark and smug from the other side wanders off the charts pretty quickly. So if that's your vision for the board - yet another left-wing mutual masturbation society - then the few contrary views left here will likely disappear.
Assvir hasn't contributed anything to the board in years (assuming he ever really did). He pops in once in a blue moon to spew hateful shit. Total waste of time and he won't be missed. He should've been shown the door years ago.
Dinner's ban isn't permanent AFAIK and will expire around the same time that Dayton's does. With this particular incident, he seemed to have gone off the rails with the hateful stuff he was posting toward BizzaroEnt and, frankly, I don't believe warnings would've been enough for him. They certainly haven't been enough in the past.
Agreed. The only way to get him to back off was to pull the plug for a while, which is why I am fine with the ban, but do hope he can come back soon. A few days/weeks/months away will do him some good, I hope.
Think about it: who has actually been permabanned under the watch of "liberal" administrators over the past 4 years?
That's 4 people in 4 years (the rest were either personal requests (1), or John Castle duals).
Between 2010 and 2013, your administration permabanned 8 people, as far as the records go. I'm not saying you or her were wrong, just you permabanned twice as many people in less time. This administration isn't ban happy. The people being temp banned act like they've gone temporarily fucking insane. I can't explain why, they just are.
The people who have been temp banned were banned because of racial epithets directly leveled against members here, including Ramen's insanely racist post to Anna. Yet he's allowed back, he just hasn't returned.
Even John Castle could have come back. All he had to do was apologize for being a dick whistle, and the admins were willing to let him back in. It has been years, and he hasn't come back except under different accounts. It must be fucking hard to say "sorry guys, I was an ass. I'd like to come back."
Dinner went on a screed so fucking cock sideways that even David Duke would pause and say "hey man, boundaries!"
Megatron only showed up to hurl racial epithets at everyone, spam up the forum, and then disappear again. His account existed solely to troll people, make a mess and leave. I'm not even sure if his ban will be permanent, either.
The liberals aren't driving people away. Those who are conservatives are leaving because either real life intervened, or because they found somewhere else they preferred, as is their choice. Plenty of liberals have left over the years, too, for various reasons. Who is left to discuss things? The more hardcore right, and of course they're going to clash with the hardcore left. I'm not sure what, if anything, can be done about that.
I'll note an irony of the silencing dissenting voices argument: Dinner, by his own claims, is on the liberal side of the fence, not the conservative one.
@Elwood @Lanzman I don't disagree with what you're saying, by the way.
I don't have access (nor want) to the Blue Room, but if Dayton's banned, then he shouldn't have access to shit here. When the ban's up, let him post what he wants in the appropriate forums, otherwise, he's not going to learn his lesson. (Assuming he's capable of such.) As for Tassvir, he's not done anything of merit in the time that I've been here, so I don't see why he should be allowed to continue to post.
As @Elwood and others have said, there's value in hearing dissenting opinions, but there's also got to be limits. As much as I might despise Trump, I have no problem with anyone calling for him to be killed, or violent revolution, to be permabanned. Dinner is a dipstick in that he gives a window into views many of us might not otherwise see, so I can see some justification for keeping him around, at the same time, I'm not gonna object if he gets permabanned. He's as much of a fucking racist as Muad ever was, even if their politics aren't completely identical.
Muad never called for Saudi Arabia to be "glassed" for not taking Muslim refugees in and understood that immigrants only take jobs because big companies enable that system, so no I wouldn't put him and Dinner in the same category.
The biggest exodus i can remember--the first one, anyway--was back when rep wars made up a good solid third of all RR posts and people got sick of having to fight over board drama to talk about shit they came here for. I mean, that *is* why Lanzman took rep points away IIRC, and much of the board accused him of pussifying the board culture and selling out (me included, in the interest of full disclosure and intellectual honesty).
In retrospect, that was a very good decision for the overall health of the board. We lost so many poster because jackals like Sokar ran them off over leftist politics and the rabid antisemitism aimed against Actormike that went unchecked in comments.
Honestly, I think we crossed that milestone ages ago when rep was neutered to curb harrassment.
As I said in the other post on the bans, we need to take a clear stance on what is and isn't allowed. You don't want a Violet Room that's not indexed on Google? Fine. But as Amaris points out, the world is pretty interconnected. Nick was going to replace John as admin until he saw Volpone and Ramen and all them spamming racial slurs and ducked out because his legal name appears on a whole lotta older posts here.
More importantly, it's also 2018. I'd like to think we aren't the same assholes we were fifteen years ago that need to scream about gay bashing and have learned something about inclusivity. Even growing up as a liberal (um, mostly ) even my views on what representation and being a good ally is needed some revision.
I wasn't a day one poster, but my understanding of WF was that y'all wanted a place where you could call the cat a bastard and that folks like Dayton and Enterpriser could be called out for being the disruptive shits that they are. That's the reason I stayed around after years of one passive aggressive troll who made Enterpriser look like Assvir in comparison single handedly ruined the Enterprise forum for years. I never needed to call people faggots or drag their RL identities to do that.
One last thing: most of the biggest voices against the hate speech censorship are also ones who had no problem ganging up on and dragging Liet for literally YEARS over that idiotic oreo comment he made at me long after he and I resolved that issue. Most of them were also ones who spread the Kikey Mikey shit and we're ones cheering Ramen's troll of me last year.
It's worth pointing out.
This. I’m not going to rehash what’s already been said.
Point of order: When Muad was around, Muslim refugees weren't really a topic of discussion. As for your second point, are you trying to say that Muad believed that brown people were equals? Forget whatever his statements here might have been, he was a member of Sons of Confederate Veterans, and as @Elwood has pointed out, it doesn't really matter what the HQ said, the rank and file folks were racist as shit.
I don't disagree with that, but Muad didn't so blatantly call for murder like dinner did.
And I do remember quite a bit of Muslim talk, most notably from Sokar--a guy who, ironically, trolled Dinner for being too soft back before Charlie Hebdo broke something in his brain.
Dinner always had a broken brain. It’s just that he used to hate on the same people a lot of y’all don’t like, too.
Yeah, you're right about that. There were things that made me go O_o at him, like that entirely inaccurate creationist post that Tamar owned his ass in
Separate names with a comma.