Girls will be girls

Discussion in 'The Red Room' started by TheLonelySquire, Feb 13, 2020.

  1. spot261

    spot261 I don't want the game to end

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    Depends on what you define as "sucked". As a form of entertainment and sustainable business model sure, but that was not the original intent.

    The intention was to put people from different martial backgrounds up against each other to contrast the "street" effectiveness of their styles, not to create a style (and a sport) in it's own right. The goals have shifted over time out of necessity in order to meet licensing laws, health and safety regulations and frankly to sell tickets, but a real case could be made that the earlier form was more interesting from a purist's point of view in that it was far more reflective of the practicalities of training in a given style or styles.

    I played around back in the 90s relying on a makeshift combination of boxing, judo and kung fu (of which the first two I'd competed at amateur level), but that would in no way stack up in the modern game because the main skill set I'd bring to the game above and beyond current competitors would fall foul of "dump'n'hump" rules. I can't wrestle to save my life, but I can strike and grapple if needed.

    Those rules were brought in because the most effective skill set in early competitions was also the least entertaining for a crowd, in other words creating a spectacle became the focus and supplanted contrasting disciplines.

    None of which has any bearing on the thread mind you.
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2020
  2. matthunter

    matthunter Has the strength of 20 men... 20 BIG men

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    No, I think you've nailed the decline in the quality of internet debate quite well.
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  3. spot261

    spot261 I don't want the game to end

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    Was it ever any better?
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  4. matthunter

    matthunter Has the strength of 20 men... 20 BIG men

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    I had the odd conversation with Dayton where I didn't refer to him as a horrific cunt, and he hadn't actually said anything that revealed his true nature as a horrific cunt.

    Could be outliers.
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  5. Federal Farmer

    Federal Farmer Rebel Scum

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  6. Ten Lubak

    Ten Lubak Salty Dog

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  7. TheLonelySquire

    TheLonelySquire Fresh Meat

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    Are you a man or a woman, John? Even an emasculated one counts!
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  8. Amaris

    Amaris Hopeful

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    I am a child of the universe. I am made of stardust.
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  9. TheLonelySquire

    TheLonelySquire Fresh Meat

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    Not gonna get chicks with that attitude!
  10. Amaris

    Amaris Hopeful

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    Joke's on you. I'm pansexual, which means I won't be getting any dudes, or enbies, either. :nyer:
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  11. Federal Farmer

    Federal Farmer Rebel Scum

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    We all are.
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  12. Amaris

    Amaris Hopeful

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    Yes we are.
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  13. TheLonelySquire

    TheLonelySquire Fresh Meat

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    Most dudes who can't get chicks figure something out! Regardless, no snapper for Johnny!
  14. Amaris

    Amaris Hopeful

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    You're about as subtle as Donald Trump eyefucking his daughter.
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  15. Ten Lubak

    Ten Lubak Salty Dog

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    I actually think you’d clean up with that but the chicks would have armpit hair and mad bush :shrug:
  16. spot261

    spot261 I don't want the game to end

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    Or feathers?
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  17. oldfella1962

    oldfella1962 light & lethal

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    we all are. I think he's asking for a little tighter focus on the question posed.
  18. oldfella1962

    oldfella1962 light & lethal

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    :yuck:
  19. Tererun

    Tererun Magical Girl

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    When you are judging skill by testosterone levels then there is no actual reason to keep a person who has the hormone levels of a female out of competition for females. A person who is on testosterone blockers from puberty on, and has the same levels of hormones as a female should not be kept from competing on female teams. So in the modern day where a trans female has from puberty been female based on the developmental hormone levels and has not developed a male physique then they should participate on the female team.

    Since you are ignoring the real difference that is popping up, a trans male who has been taking male hormones from puberty would have an unfair advantage on a female team so under your logic they should be on a male team, then let us have them compete with their gender.

    This all ignores the reality that the male vs female sports idea should be more of a class based system as all men and women are not created alike with ability and body function. Just because you have testosterone does not mean you are ever going to be competing on the same level as other men. Considering the range of female and male competition you might not even stand a chance against higher than average women. So really, if you want a fair system it should be more in a class structure like boxing where you don't put the heavyweights in with the lightweights even though the lightweights may be extremely skilled.
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  20. spot261

    spot261 I don't want the game to end

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    Indeed, separating on the basis of sex is starting to look like an antiquated idea for many sports.

    If we are truly to accept that gender is a spectrum then surely any reasoning which applies to race (which is also a spectrum) would be applicable. We see very few white sprinters and even fewer black swimmers yet the concept of having racial categories in those events would be seen as abhorrent, despite the inherent advantages one "group" has over another.

    Why then accept a similar situation for sex or gender?

    It seems to me there's a disconnect in our thinking here, segregation is discrimination in one case but desegregation is discrimination in another, despite the comparable differentials in performance.

    That indicates that there are bigger questions about how we structure sports and the question of trans athletes has opened a can of worms that in all truth was there all along just waiting to be noticed.

    There are really only two broads avenues forward, tightening the grouping of athletes to have special categories for trans athletes (and possibly even other groups), or broadening the scope of competition and making more pertinent physical characteristics such as weight and height more prominent as criteria. For a boxer weight (and reach) are key characteristics, for an olympic lifter the mechanics of hip movements and ratios of musculature and reach for various limbs are far more important than genitalia.

    It seems a non brainer to me that the second is vastly preferable, but I do acknowledge that to many the thought of rugby or combat sports played between men and women would be unpalatable and can understand why that would be.
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  21. Tererun

    Tererun Magical Girl

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    There is also the reality behind @TheLonelySquire and his bigoted reasoning. This idea is really about pulling trans children out of sports which would have the overall effect or removing them from inclusion and participation with other kids. The sole purpose of this is not to protect the children, but rather to indoctrinate them into the idea that trans people should not be allowed to participate in society. He wants society to pull trans children off to the side and teach children when they are young that they are evil and wrong.

    What school sports are fair as per the physical definition of the individual? There are short buys, tall girls, and people with all sorts of different levels of competition. There is a fundamental problem with recruitment for the pros and the issuance of scholarships based on gameplay. I participate in adult games and spots and it is recreational for most people. That means we all come to play a game and we all get to participate. For most of us that is where we are. For most of our children, that is where they are too. The problem is we are basing some of their rise from poverty on how well they play a game, which is a stupid thing. If things like college were free then being scouted in high school would not matter and we could find a way for all kids who want to participate to participate. When we involve life long consequences with how we play a game in high school or college then all kids who are physically lesser than the bigger kids are fucked.

    I bowl in a number of leagues. It is fun, and there is some competition because you have months of competition. Sportsmanship is important for fun. That is what should be taught in school. I don't participate on the female standings even in the GLBT leagues who were ok with me doing it. However, there is a reality I am cetainly not in competition with the more muscular guys throwing the ball with far more speed and kinetic energy. There is an advantage there. Some of the leagues I am in you are not in competition for the top spots. I am not in competition for the handicapped games because some low end bowler is going to have a great night and I could toss a 300 game and still lose the handicapped spot.

    It is about playing and having fun. Sometimes that means you have a bad year and lose all the time. Someone has got to lose, and learning to do that while remaining competative at times is what life is about for 99 percent of society.
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  22. oldfella1962

    oldfella1962 light & lethal

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    I agree in theory (put athletes in classes where they are as evenly matched as possible) but in practicality it's harder and here's why: the "talent pool" might be too shallow. For example if we have a division in boxing for "welterweight trans was male now female took female hormones at age 14" (before a fully mature male body developed) and another division for "welterweight trans was male now female took female hormones at age 22" (after a fully mature male body developed) the number of fighters in each of these two categories would be low and they would end up fighting each the same opponents over and over. A really good fighter would "clean out the division" quickly and fan interest would plummet.

    Yes it's good to get athletes who match each other in skill level, strength, size etc. but you need a deep enough talent pool to keep it interesting. Totally dominating when there isn't a variety of competition doesn't bring out the best in anybody.

    Where does it end? Using the UFC as an example, do we break up the male featherweight division into fighters with a less than 70" reach and fighters with a greater than 70" reach? :shrug:
  23. Tererun

    Tererun Magical Girl

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    No, that is not how I was suggesting at all you fucking moron. I said inclusion was good, and that not allowing them to compete with others would be bad. I am not sure where you got make a separate trans category for trans people out of that, and frankly only a bigot would have thought that.

    If you were to do such things you would have to have certain classes where boys and girls of equal strength would compete against each other. As a group boys would be above girls in strength, but as individuals they would be physically equal in large areas.

    Granted the sexists like @oldfella1962 would lose their minds, but over all that would bring the boys and girls together in competition and begin to remove gender segregation and sexism over all. In the beginning the sexists would whine but as an adult I play competatively with women all the time and since I am not at the top level of anything we can often beat each other.
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  24. spot261

    spot261 I don't want the game to end

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    Hence my point, it's probably better to broaden the demographic criteria and focus more on the physical attributes.
  25. oldfella1962

    oldfella1962 light & lethal

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    and Tererun completely misses my point and regresses into personal insults. I'm not sexist and have nothing against female athletes (or trans athletes) competing in any sport. Inclusion is great at the non professional level. Sports are generally all about fun, but when gifted, talented & serious athletes move into the higher levels it's a different realm. Also safety can be a huge concern depending on the sport.

    Back to mixing people of different strength levels you have to find methods of testing that were fair, accurate, and that everyone agrees measure the type of strength most relative to the sport.
  26. spot261

    spot261 I don't want the game to end

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    Question.

    Would a 200 pound woman be at greater risk in the UFC against a 200 pound man if both have a similar background in terms of successes at the lower or amateur levels?

    I'm not sure she would to be honest. The likelihood of her successfully getting there might be lower but given that she has already passed the required hurdles why should she not be weight matched?
  27. Asyncritus

    Asyncritus Expert on everything

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    Think of the possiblities in medals, though!

    I still hold at least two club record for a a track-and-field club in the Alps that I left over 20 years ago, because I was the only person in the club ever to compete in that event for my category of age and sex.

    Yay me! :)
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  28. Ten Lubak

    Ten Lubak Salty Dog

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    So this dude has definitely never played nor understands the concept of competitive sports
  29. TheLonelySquire

    TheLonelySquire Fresh Meat

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    Separating men and women's sports is natural. To group them together somehow based on height and weight criteria is not going to solve anything. The men will still be, for the most part, stronger and faster than the women. Everyone knows this, do they not?

    I play semi pro level tournament racquetball. Sometimes we'll have some of the university women jump in and play in my tournament division. They get absolutely destroyed by similar level of talent. Why am I not allowed to jump in the women's division? It wouldn't be fair to them as they can't handle the speed of the ball generated by the power off of a man's swing. Let's keep them separate and be reasonable here.
  30. Lanzman

    Lanzman Vast, Cool and Unsympathetic Formerly Important

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    We should definitely take the sex discriminator out of sports. Let women and men compete on an equal basis, within such considerations as height/weight where appropriate. Let the chips fall where they may.
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