God punishes America

Discussion in 'The Red Room' started by We Are Borg, May 18, 2019.

  1. Elwood

    Elwood I know what I'm about, son.

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    You're applying human rationale to God, the Creator and Sustainer of all creation. The Author of life and faith. The clay cannot possibly understand the potter's motive and plan.

    Let me give you a real example. "Monica, mother of Augustine, pleaded with God that her dissolute son might not go to Rome, that sink of iniquity, but he was permitted to go, and thus came into contact with Ambrose, the bishop of Milan, through whom he was converted. God fulfilled the mother's desire while denying her request." - A. T. Pierson
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  2. spot261

    spot261 Fresh Meat

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    Which as arguments go only works if you accept the fundamental premises, that God:

    1) exists
    2) is all powerful
    3) is genuinely benign
    4) is in a position to see all possible outcomes.

    Each of those is flawed from the perspective of someone who is not a Christian:

    1) is a matter of faith, not objectively verifiable truth
    2) doesn't necessarily follow from "1" and in fact looks quite shaky when we look at the evidence as presented. If God were all powerful, why the need to sacrifice Jesus in order to thwart the devils' design?
    3) very difficult to fit with the evidence indeed, why create a species with free will then punish them for using it? Why the need for all that worship?
    4) also does not follow from one and looks to be visibly untrue given at least one part of that plan has gone astray, the fall of Satan.
  3. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Wonderful, Loving Husband & Father

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    There are as many or more flaws in your reasoning as you claim are in the fundamental premises
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  4. spot261

    spot261 Fresh Meat

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    Such as?
  5. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Wonderful, Loving Husband & Father

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    1) For one you are applying strictly human standards.
    2) For another you are implying that the mind of God is knowable and understandable.
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  6. spot261

    spot261 Fresh Meat

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    1) I have no other standards to apply but words have meaning and if we are to use them we use them as humans, with the meanings we ascribe to them.
    2) Or exists at all. Even supposing it does, why would you assume it to be unknowable? There's no logical reason a priori to assume anything except as a point of faith and that is a non argument from the perspective of a non Christian.
  7. Man Afraid of his Shoes

    Man Afraid of his Shoes كافر

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    Tornadoes kill 30 New Yorkers - "It's God's wrath! He's pissed off at the queer lovers! Praise him!"

    Tornadoes kill 30 Alabamans - "Shit happens." :shrug:
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  8. K.

    K. Sober

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    If we can't apply human concepts to God, then we should not describe Him at all, even as creator or sustainer, should not worship him, and should not, for instance, claim that he did anything for Augustine or his Mum. You really can't have that both ways.
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  9. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Wonderful, Loving Husband & Father

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    Well given that tornadoes in Alabama are more common than in New York.
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  10. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Wonderful, Loving Husband & Father

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    non Christians take many things on faith the same as Christians. Why not allow it into discussions regarding God?
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  11. Tererun

    Tererun Magical Girl

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    I thought @Dayton3 was well liked by god because of his reading list of picture books? Personally I would be pissed at god if he made me Dayton, but someone had to do it so I guess it is best that it was Dayton.

    However, I am pretty sure buttsex is the default reason god smites places with bad weather.
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  12. Man Afraid of his Shoes

    Man Afraid of his Shoes كافر

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    Agreed. God must really hate Alabama.
    Last edited: May 19, 2019
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  13. spot261

    spot261 Fresh Meat

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    Lots of people have faith in lots of things, but that doesn't make those things a given in a debate.

    Buddhists have faith in the concept of reincarnation, should we proceed in any discussion therefore on the basis that we will in fact be reincarnated?

    Many Neo Pagan faiths believe in pantheons of Gods and Spirits, should we also assume those exist too?

    If you are talking to another Christian, fine, by all means take the existence of God as a given and go from there. When you are talking to someone who doesn't believe in that God, however, that becomes nonsensical because you are framing the discussion within the context of a worldview which is not shared. Bear in mind how many wars have been fought between Christian sects over differences even within that theology, you yourself have declared several times you don't view Catholicism as being a legitimate denomination.

    You cannot expect me as a non Christian to accept that homosexuality, for instance, is a sin based on being able to find a Bible passage. That might wash if you were having a debate about theology with someone from your church, discussing whether your religion views it as a sin. It might also wash if we are having a conversation about the beliefs of Christianity. However as I don't share that belief it becomes a nonsense to imagine I would alter my own views due that Bible passage any more than you might shape yours on the basis of the Tanakh or the Tao te Ching. Those books do not reflect or represent your beliefs and the Bible does not reflect mine.

    Ergo you cannot use "God is all knowing yet unknowable" as the basis for a meaningful thesis which would be accepted by a non Christian because it pre supposes several premises which that person would have no reason to accept given they are tenets of a faith which is not shared and thus cannot be proven.
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  14. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Wonderful, Loving Husband & Father

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    And many have faith that climate change exists. As most that believe this have not done any of the research, trained the scientists who have done the research or built the instruments used in the research.
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  15. garamet

    garamet "The whole world is watching."

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    Many have faith that gravity exists. Where do you stand on the subject?
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  16. TheLonelySquire

    TheLonelySquire Fresh Meat

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    He's your god too, buddy!
  17. spot261

    spot261 Fresh Meat

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    One would imagine on the ground....
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  18. spot261

    spot261 Fresh Meat

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    Are you seriously suggesting you don't understand the difference between faith and willingness to accept that someone else is being honest about the objective evidence?
  19. tafkats

    tafkats That'll put marzipan in your pie plate, bingo! Moderator

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    Wouldn't an omnipotent god have had something to do with that?
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  20. tafkats

    tafkats That'll put marzipan in your pie plate, bingo! Moderator

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    All empirical evidence suggests otherwise.
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  21. spot261

    spot261 Fresh Meat

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    He's certainly not mine
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  22. Tuckerfan

    Tuckerfan BMF Staff Member Moderator

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    [​IMG]
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  23. Amaris

    Amaris Fuzzy Logic Generator

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    Then again, maybe you’re a child of the Herne god. Did you ever consider that? Nope, and every time you treat other people like shit, you’re just making him slightly disappointed, because the Herne god is really chill, and wants you to have a chance to get to know the fellow souls around you.
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  24. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Wonderful, Loving Husband & Father

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    Omnipotence in no way implies willingness to act in every instance.
  25. oldfella1962

    oldfella1962 light & lethal

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    I totally get the concept that "god" is greater, more powerful, and obviously so advanced that mere humans cannot understand his thoughts, motivations, plans, etc.
    But humans do indeed understand the human concepts of falsehoods, embellishments, contradictions, hypocrisy, basic math/geology/biology/physics/etc. so you would think that if the bible is the written link between god and his special (yet doomed for the most part) creation it would not be so full of plot holes and distractions. Just sayin'
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  26. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Wonderful, Loving Husband & Father

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    God is perfect. Humans are not.
  27. Captain Conspiracy

    Captain Conspiracy Making Frogs Gay Again

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    He’s not your guy, friend!
  28. Tererun

    Tererun Magical Girl

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    You are evidence even god can fuck up big time.
  29. TheLonelySquire

    TheLonelySquire Fresh Meat

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    Yes...we *popped* into existence. Lots of evidence for that!
  30. Tuckerfan

    Tuckerfan BMF Staff Member Moderator

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    Far more than any gods one might care to name.
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