Holy book plot holes tangent

Discussion in 'The Red Room' started by mburtonk, Apr 30, 2021.

  1. doublegoodprole

    doublegoodprole Fresh Meat

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    Take a male and female human being and place them on an Earthlike planet. Come back in a 1000 years. There won't be any humans on the planet.

    I thought the deleterious effects of incest on humans were already settled scientifically.
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  2. Jenee

    Jenee Ind. Jenee of Winterfell

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    Actually, that's not true either. Other women living during "Eve's" time may have descendants alive today, but are not in a direct female line.

    That's all that means.

    It just means that all of Eve's friend's offspring, at some point, only had only male offspring. Only Eve's female offspring ALL had female offspring as well as male offspring.
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  3. doublegoodprole

    doublegoodprole Fresh Meat

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    If creationists want to say, well, God did something that mitigated the effects of incest or whatever, great. That's valid. But it's certainly not scientific.

    To be fair, the story of Cain and Abel was not meant to be digested by a scientifically literate population and subjected to a rigorous examination as to its veracity. It's a folk story, a morality tale. Jealousy is bad. Best not to kill your family members, even if they are a goody two shoes. And so on.
    Last edited: May 3, 2021
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  4. Nova

    Nova livin on the edge of the ledge Writer

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    you're not wrong but having come from that background, I can tell you that they have what is to them a perfectly elegant rationalization. To wit:

    Adam & Eve were created perfect, down to the genetic level.
    The Fall introduced imperfection and all that would eventually derive from it (disease, diasster, etc, death even) - but not all at once.
    Thus
    A&E's kids - male and female - could interbreed without magnifying genetic defect to an intolerable level. The further you go from the first generation, the more that becomes an issue the culture must frown on. And since they lived hundreds of years there were a LOT of second gen kids and thousands of 3rd gen.

    The real "but genetics" problem comes after the flood.
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  5. Nova

    Nova livin on the edge of the ledge Writer

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    love that play but it's a completely stupid exchange and while the average rube my say that, an intellectual like Bryan wouldn't have.

    I don't have to know how to read Hebrew to know the answer to that challenge.
  6. matthunter

    matthunter Ice Bear

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    Sounds very Vampire: The Masquerade to me.

    I always had my suspicions that Christians were edgelord LARPers.
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  7. oldfella1962

    oldfella1962 high speed, low drag

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    "follow the science" as they say:

    No, a Mitochondrial "Eve" Is Not the First Female in a Species | Science | Smithsonian Magazine

    Study shows mitochondrial DNA can be passed through fathers – what does this mean for genetics? (theconversation.com)
    "So by studying mitochondrial DNA in different populations, scientists have also been able to follow how these groups have moved around the world and even to identify a potential common female ancestor for all humans, known as “mitochondrial Eve”. All of this work has, however, been based on the “fact” that mitochondria pass down the female line only, something we now know to be wrong."

    The Eve Gene (shadesofnoir.org.uk)
    It is thus nicknamed the ‘Eve Gene’ as it is an inherited gene, paying reference to the story of creation in Genesis, the first chapter of the Bible. The story of creation describes Eve as first woman on earth, therefore in essence she would be the mother to us all. However, this has not been scientifically proven therefore, the term is used only to refer to the most recent female genetic ancestor of a species.

    Biologically, 50% of any humans’ DNA is inherited from their mother and the other 50% from their father. However mitochondrial DNA is inherited solely from your mother and can remain unchanged for tens of thousands of years (Specktor, 2019). It is a unique genetic code that is passed down for generations. This characteristic has proved to be extremely useful for research as mtDNA can be used a biomarker (proof of biological process in the body) to trace back the matrilineal history of our species.

    For clarification, the Eve Gene does not necessarily reference the first female human or of any species, but it is more accurately used to refer to the most historically recent female from which humans can trace their ancestry. Whilst currently the genome can only be traced to one female, this does not mean that no other female predates her or there are none that may have lived at the same time as her. There are a variety of reasons why the genetic lineage can only be traced to this one particular female; for example, she may have been the only one with surviving female children that would have been able to pass on her mtDNA (Learn, 2016).
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  8. Asyncritus

    Asyncritus Expert on everything

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    Let's talk about this, since it is a common point raised by people.

    1) It is standard evolutionary theory that one single cell (that came about spontaneously) was sufficient to produce untold millions of viable species. Why, then, it is "scientifically impossible" for two organisms to produce one viable species? It seems to me that the claim that two people cannot possibly produce a species is therefore an attempt to disprove evolution.

    2) What is the problem with incest (besides the conservatives' problem with homosexuality, that "it's icky")? Perhaps in spelling it out scientifically, you will see the error in your reasoning.
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  9. Asyncritus

    Asyncritus Expert on everything

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    Even though this is the same post of yours, I thought it best to look at it separately, as it's a very different issue.

    If the story of Cain and Abel is nothing more than "killing brother is bad :nono:", then there really isn't much to it. But the point of the chapter is not to point out something that everyone knows (and knew very well when it was written).

    Genesis 3 shows what is wrong with humanity, and a rigourous analysis of the chapter is extremely enlightening. Even if the whole thing is not strictly literal (which it very well might not be; no culture I know of always writes in strictly literal terms), it is a careful exposition of how people function because they do not believe that God is to be trusted. Genesis 4 follows, not to show that "killing your brother is a bad thing to do" but to show that religion is no solution to what is wrong with people. Cain was a religious man, but not a good man. The only point of his religion was to try to "get something from God" by doing what he thought was necessary from a religious point of view.

    Thousands of years after that story was written down, that is still pretty much what religion is about. "If you do, give, believe, sacrifice, practice, whatever ... God will bless you with health, wealth, happiness, and an eternal `get out of jail free' card." Too many people think the Bible is about teaching religion, but an overview of the whole thing shows clearly that the true message of the Bible is that religion doesn't work to fix what is wrong with people.
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  10. Asyncritus

    Asyncritus Expert on everything

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    And do you see anything that is scientifically or logically implausable with that explanation, within the framework of belief in a God who created people?
  11. Nova

    Nova livin on the edge of the ledge Writer

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    Not really, once you accept the creation premise what the Bible ACTUALLY says from their to Noah (as opposed to what folks want to read into it) is a reasonable narrative. The Flood is the next thing (after the creation itself) that takes you out of the plot. (MAYBE Babel?)
  12. Fisherman's Worf

    Fisherman's Worf I am the Seaman, I am the Walrus, Qu-Qu-Qapla'!

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  13. Fisherman's Worf

    Fisherman's Worf I am the Seaman, I am the Walrus, Qu-Qu-Qapla'!

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    You are making the assumption that she only fucked one dude. That is not at all the same as the fictional Adam and Eve.
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  14. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

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    Genesis consists of a number of separate tribal myths fairly crudely stitched together. That's why one passage often doesn't follow from the previous.

    It's fun watching adherents tying themselves in knots about it though.
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  15. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

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    That doesn't mean what you think it does. Whoever this female is, she is merely the single individual who is the earliest common ancestor of all humans. There are many other ancestors, before her, after her and contemporaneous to her, who are merely not in common. She is not at all analogous to Eve, who according to biblical literalists must serve as the originator for fully half of the DNA belonging to the human race.
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  16. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

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    That may be an elegant rationalisation to them, but the concept of someone being "genetically perfect" is meaningless nonsense.
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  17. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

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    Primordial organisms had not yet evolved sexual reproduction. That occurred later. So different rules apply.

    Incest leads to all manner of genetic issues, including infertility. I'd be surprised if you didn't know that.
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  18. 14thDoctor

    14thDoctor Listen here, Jack

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    Alternately I'd argue that since Genesis-era humans seemed to live a whole lot longer than people today with far more primitive technology and medical knowledge, perhaps modern humans are living with genetic defects caused by interbreeding? Humans also have to deal with all sorts of inconvenient evolutionary features that other animals don't. :async:
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  19. Bickendan

    Bickendan Custom Title Administrator Faceless Mook Writer

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    Ah, the Hapsburgs are such fine specimen...
  20. oldfella1962

    oldfella1962 high speed, low drag

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    good point. Oral story telling had existed across the planet for thousands of generations (assuming you believe that humans have been around for many thousands of years) before writing was invented. There would be many versions and variations on mankind's basic behavior, psychology and life lessons in general.
  21. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    My particular favorite part of Genesis, well besides the creator of the universe explaining his creation and getting it wrong and creating the Sun on the 4th day... is the part where God admits the serpent was right.


    4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

    6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it.

    But there at the end, after God curses them and their descendants forever for their lack of submission:

    22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”
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  22. oldfella1962

    oldfella1962 high speed, low drag

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    I think god also said that on the day you eat the fruit you will die, but then Adam lives for another 500 years or something like that. :unsure:
    No doubt god meant Adam would die spiritually not literally. Always with the fucking loopholes with these people!
  23. steve2^4

    steve2^4 Aged Meat

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    rats, i thought this was a batman and robin tangent.
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  24. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    Yeah, it's pretty much BS all around. You will certainly die is the translation I see the most. But even if he didn't eat from the fruit of the tree of knowledge, he'd already certainly die at some point, unless he ate from the tree of life. Which we know he hadn't done at this point. Indeed, if he did that, God says he wouldn't have died... so the take away isn't don't do what I tell you not to do, but make sure you take everything you can. :D

    And Adam dying at some point the future isn't the issue. The issue is the curse and the beginning of sin, which not only means all his descendants also die, but many, many of them will burn in hell. You think if he explained that maybe both the kids would have thought twice. But then, they literally didn't know right from wrong, according to the myth, so how can you punish them, let alone all their descendants for eternity?

    God is a shitty parent. The absolute fucking worst.
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  25. oldfella1962

    oldfella1962 high speed, low drag

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    imagine this: Adam doesn't eat the fruit that kills you * and never dies, thus his descendants never die. Can you imagine how fast the world would overpopulate? :shock: Well at least until The Flood came and reset the world back to a handful of people. And by "never die" would it be like that one Twilight Zone episode where the guy would throw himself under trains and shit but still survive it?

    Instead of all those epic bible battles where thousands of soldiers die, they would be pretty boring with a casualty count of ZERO every time. :zzz:

    * I think that fruit that kills you if you eat it is in the "ethnic food" section of my local Publix most likely in the Asian area - and I have no idea how to prepare it for consumption. That said if I ever....EVER!....hear somebody talk about Adam eating "the apple" I'll hit them square in the teeth with a croquet mallet. They didn't even have apples growing yet in that part of the world unless the Garden of Eden was in Kazakhstan (google apple history)

    High five!

    borat.jpg
    Last edited: May 8, 2021
  26. matthunter

    matthunter Ice Bear

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    Depends whether "never dies" means "can't be killed".

    Barring injury or illness, the Time Lords on Doctor Who are functionally immortal. And they came up with a cheat if they got badly injured or sick, but that's not foolproof. They can die.

    And we have early Biblical figures with lifespans in the several hundreds, so even after eating the fruit Adam's descendants should be populating the Earth left, right and centre.
  27. oldfella1962

    oldfella1962 high speed, low drag

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    you read my mind! I just mentioned that before reading your post about it. I don't think the bible authors anticipated people using logic and skepticism in future generations.
  28. matthunter

    matthunter Ice Bear

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    To be fair to them, folk still vote Republican.
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  29. NAHTMMM

    NAHTMMM Conversant in dark parables

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    No. That's people explaining it to each other and getting it close enough for pre-Renaissance government work. The main point for us to take away, now that we have a better understanding of the mechanics involved, the point that gets through despite the ancients having basically a zero in science, is that God created everything and declared it all good.

    Yes, the serpent was right. They learned good and evil by committing evil, and it made them miserable and scared and killed them spiritually. Did God ever say "The serpent is lying"?

    Then God prevents humanity from living forever in a merely physical form by blocking them from the "tree of life", and sets in motion the prophecies that herald Jesus coming to bring spiritual rebirth to the whole world. If you had the most basic understanding of Christian theology you would know this part.

    Also that's not a curse, it's a forewarning. God isn't going to actively make the ground grow thorns, there are just gonna be thorns. They're part of a healthy ecosystem.

    Where does that come up? And he wouldn't have died spiritually regardless.
    The wages of sin is death. Or are death if you want to focus on that S. God didn't have to curse them with anything. And I doubt you understand what sin is.

    I doubt you understand what Hell is.
    What part of "You will die" is unclear?

    They knew right. They knew the specific action that was wrong. They did know right and wrong. They could do anything in the world . . . just leave that one tree alone.

    How is this hard for you to comprehend? Unless you just don't want to. Unless you're willfully lying. Unless you've deliberately closed your mind up tight in case there might just be one tiny beam of light that gets in and forces you to reconsider the little Hell you've built up to reign over.

    If I give you a big monthly income, and a nice house to run as you like, and introduce you to a hot model of your preferred nationality, and all the bells and whistles of a wealthy life, and some simple task to give you something to do, and all I ask is that you not paint the bathroom pink.

    And then some random hobo on the street tells you "Hey, if you paint the bathroom pink I bet you'll discover the dark secret of the house."

    And you think it's a good idea to paint the bathroom pink.

    How do you think you deserve any sympathy when I throw you out on the street because you couldn't follow one little instruction? You wanna know the dark secret? The dark secret was: I really don't want the bathroom painted pink.


    So you know, keep on being a fundie atheist, with no more clue about what you're talking about than a Christian fundie dismissing science he doesn't like based on half-witted theories of what science is or insane "articles" that debunk science with feel-good platitudes. Or maybe, as in all subjects, don't talk about things you don't understand as if you do understand them?
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  30. Lanzman

    Lanzman Vast, Cool and Unsympathetic Formerly Important

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    You are not ready for immortality.