Housing: Right or Commodity

Discussion in 'The Red Room' started by Spaceturkey, May 2, 2019.

  1. Spaceturkey

    Spaceturkey you can't spell hatred without "red hat"

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    It's under 300 square feet, so I'm not really concerned about that.

    although, that sort of over crowding isn't unheard of here because of over priced market rents...

    ***********

    Two men are dead after a fire broke out at a rooming house in Kensington Market early Thursday morning, Toronto police say.

    As many as 12 people, including two young children, were rescued from the three-storey building when emergency personnel arrived at the chaotic scene on St. Andrew Street, west of Spadina Avenue, at about 2 a.m.

    Police officers rescued an unconscious woman and a child before fire crews arrived, and some of the occupants were trapped on the upper floors and had to be rescued with a ladder, a fire official told CP24.

    PHOTOS

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    Two men were killed in a fire on St. Andrew Street in Kensington Market on Thursday, March 20, 2014. (Cam Woolley/CP24)


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    Paramedics perform CPR on a person who was pulled from a rooming house on St. Andrew Street in Kensington Market early Thursday, March 20, 2014. (Tom Stefanac/CP24)

    Toronto EMS spokeswoman Kim McKinnon said paramedics transported 12 people to different hospitals.

    The two men were pronounced dead and McKinnon said the others were being treated for non-life-threatening injuries related to smoke inhalation.

    A family of six was among those hospitalized.

    Fire officials said it appears the three-alarm blaze began on the second floor and then spread to other parts of the three-storey building as the residents were asleep.

    The building has restaurants on the ground floor and a cluster of small apartments on the upper floors. The apartments all share a common kitchen and bathroom, a fire official said.

    The building is equipped with smoke detectors but investigators have not confirmed whether they were functioning.

    The cause of the blaze is under investigation.

    The address was not licensed to operate as a rooming house and there is no record of active inspections at the location, a city spokesperson told CP24 in an email Thursday.

    *****
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  2. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Wonderful, Loving Husband & Father

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    If you have no control over your own property then what is the point of owning it in the first place?
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  3. Amaris

    Amaris Princess of Love

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    This is why people don't bother discussing things with you. You are currently arguing against the idea of having adequate housing as being vital to a democracy built upon representation, a democracy that started with a constitution that bestowed voting rights upon white, wealthy land owners. It's like you lack the ability to comprehend human emotions like empathy, and compassion, and can only work from a severely strict reading of a Constitution that has been repeatedly amended.

    You call me a dictator for wanting everyone to have clean, decent housing. What does that make you, Mr. Where is your right to have a house?
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  4. Captain Conspiracy

    Captain Conspiracy Making Frogs Gay Again

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    Hence why property taxes are theft.
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  5. Captain Conspiracy

    Captain Conspiracy Making Frogs Gay Again

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    What does the constitution being amended have to do with anything?
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  6. spot261

    spot261 Fresh Meat

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    Yes.

    They don't own the building but it is their home. The place they live.

    And please let's not waste time on that permanent word.

    We both know it doesn't mean ad infinitum.
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  7. Amaris

    Amaris Princess of Love

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    [​IMG]
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  8. spot261

    spot261 Fresh Meat

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    For those of us who don't define existence by the US constitution, article 25 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

    But anyone who needs that spelt out to them really should check their moral barometer anyway.
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  9. Amaris

    Amaris Princess of Love

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    It's like they're so desperate to be Constitutional super adherents that they forget the whole damned purpose of the document. It's like Christians who have a strict interpretation of the Bible to the point where they hate or distrust half the population.
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  10. Shirogayne

    Shirogayne Sheithforge Formerly Important

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    20190120_180908.gif
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  11. Shirogayne

    Shirogayne Sheithforge Formerly Important

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    No one is asking for that, you peanut.

    As Turkey points out, via le rental property is being left empty just to sell at a higher price to other greedy fucks who will do the same thing, inflating prices for everyone else.

    I won't ask if this is fine because I'm sure I know your answer, but shit like this led to communism in Russia.

    Do you want communism?
    Because that's how you get communism.
    :borg:
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  12. spot261

    spot261 Fresh Meat

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    It should be simple.

    There have been human beings for a very long time.

    Humans have evolved a set of emotional and behavioural responses over millions of years which include the propensity for compassion and morals.

    We have really quite recently stated codifying those propensities as documents. One of those documents (of which there are many) is called the constitution.

    In the grand story of life on our planet it's not even a footnote, much less primary over the well being of the humans it is supposed to serve.

    Human beings > Constitution.
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  13. Shirogayne

    Shirogayne Sheithforge Formerly Important

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    There are Evangelical Christians who are less literal than you.

    Go do your homework.
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  14. We Are Borg

    We Are Borg Rey of sunshine

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    Again, that doesn't mean the solution is to make it a "right".

    It does mean, however, that there are inadequate laws with regard to landlord/tenant relations and consumer protection, among other things.
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  15. Ten Lubak

    Ten Lubak Salty Dog

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    Oh yes they are, sugartits
  16. spot261

    spot261 Fresh Meat

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    It already is a right under international law.

    There are different interpretations about how that relates to the domestic legislation of any given country, but that international law is there. Sadly the SCOTUS views it as aspirational (ie he doesn't give a shit because any time it's inconvenient he can just make a sad face and say something like "in an ideal world we'd all love that")
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  17. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Wonderful, Loving Husband & Father

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    International law is not binding law in the conventional sense.
  18. Shirogayne

    Shirogayne Sheithforge Formerly Important

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    Proof?
  19. spot261

    spot261 Fresh Meat

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    I already said that.

    However I also said that all laws are secondary to the human beings which created them.

    If you need to check a rulebook to understand what is right, decent and compassionate then something is very wrong. It's like, oh, I don't know, perhaps thinking invading a country and killing thousands of people becomes all hunky dory if you then pay market rates for the occupied land, because that satisfies the legal requirements.

    It completely misses the point of having things called laws in the first place.
    Last edited: May 2, 2019
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  20. We Are Borg

    We Are Borg Rey of sunshine

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    Yeah, but in my opinion the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is like all other "rights" documents... overbloated and dated.

    Doesn't mean I don't disagree with it, but if everyone heeded Article 1 we wouldn't even be having this conversation. That is, all people are free and equal in dignity and rights. Pretty much everything after that is a bunch of lawyers, politicians and diplomats fluffing shit up.
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  21. Spaceturkey

    Spaceturkey you can't spell hatred without "red hat"

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    Yup... something the Juggalo running the province seems determined to weaken at any cost.
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  22. spot261

    spot261 Fresh Meat

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    Some of us would say the same about the constitution.....:?:

    Seriously though, you're right in that it has little if any legal force except where applied to countries too small to resist. The reason I brought it up was more to broaden the discussion to incorporate those of us who live in the old world wastelands east of NYC.

    If the discussion is international it makes no sense to limit the definition of "rights" to those provided for by the legislature of just one nation.
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  23. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

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    This ought to be illegal.
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  24. Fruitloop

    Fruitloop Hall Monitor

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    Whether or not housing or healthcare is a "natural right" is a philosopher's dilemma. The fact remains that housing in urban areas around the world needs expansion and we need practical solutions.

    According to the Economist, what government can do is to start taxing the market value of land (land tax), as opposed to the value of what's built on the land (current property tax). This will incentivize owners to maximize the use of the land (ie, by building to accommodate as many tenants as possible) or sell it to someone who will.

    Government can also ease building restrictions and rent controls.
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  25. Diacanu

    Diacanu Comicmike. Writer

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    Houses are tubers.
    :async:
  26. spot261

    spot261 Fresh Meat

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    Might be more cost effective to take the Thanos approach?
  27. Spaceturkey

    Spaceturkey you can't spell hatred without "red hat"

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    Notable is that one of the driving factors in any real estate boom is money laundering.

    ****************************
    It is not just Vancouver’s skyrocketing real-estate market that is being boosted by criminal cash and professional money launderers.

    A new report by Transparency International Canada has found Toronto’s much larger market faces massive floods of opaque cash, with $28.4 billion invested in Greater Toronto Area housing since 2008, through corporations.

    “Criminals need homes too,” the report says, noting it’s “no surprise” that crooks living in Toronto use their criminal proceeds to buy homes.

    READ MORE: Secret police study finds crime networks could have laundered over $1B through Vancouver homes in 2016


    But it is transnational crime syndicates that have the power to really move Canadian real-estate prices in high-risk money-laundering havens like Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal, a fact that was recognized this week by Finance Canada in a proposal for a new national anti-money-laundering task force.

    And the point is underlined with Transparency International’s new report.

    “Property is also an appealing asset class for individuals looking to launder and invest large sums of dirty cash, and there are few countries quite as welcoming as Canada,” the report says.

    Not all of the $28 billion in corporate purchases identified in the new report will be nefarious. But a significant portion of the 1.4-million corporate transactions studied are open to abuse, because “the vast majority” of companies involved are privately owned, offering no information about the true buyers behind corporate shells, the report says.

    READ MORE: Canada proposes national money laundering task force in budget 2019

    Author Adam Ross completed a study of Vancouver’s high-risk luxury market in December 2016, and found about half of the city’s most expensive homes were owned through non-transparent means.

    Ross found that Toronto’s luxury market was much the same.

    “Opaque ownership is most prevalent in the luxury segment of the market, with more than half of homes above $7 million owned through companies,” the report says.

    Ross also found that 35 per cent of the 51,498 properties acquired through corporate entities between 2008 and 2018, “were cash purchases (i.e. had no mortgages).”

    Corporations are much more likely than individuals to buy homes with no financing, which means they have less scrutiny from financial institutions, and likely are at more risk for parking large sums of dirty cash.


    But financed home purchases in the Toronto area were also at risk for money laundering because $25 billion in residential mortgages over the past 10 years were provided by “unregulated lenders with no anti-money laundering reporting obligations,” according to the report.

    And when corporations borrow, they are more likely to borrow for a larger portion of the home’s price, than individuals.

    The Toronto real estate money-laundering report says that so-called “high-ratio” loans can be used to finance development projects and “can appear on title in full as being much larger than the purchase price — but could also include borrowing with the intention of washing dirty money through repayment.”


    Large loans from private lenders that are suspect, is a theme covered in a Global News investigation that found over $1 billion in suspected organized crime money laundering in Vancouver luxury real estate in 2016, according to an unreleased police study.

    In a scheme believed to be quite prevalent in Vancouver’s residential real-estate market, alleged fentanyl traffickers and casino loan sharks connected to Chinese gangs were shown to be significant real-estate lenders in that city, according to the Global News investigation.


    It is Canada’s weak regulations and policing of real-estate money laundering that seems to have attracted global criminals with vast sums to wash, the report suggests.

    “Where they do have obligations, real-estate industry players have a dismal record of compliance — something Canada’s regulatory agencies have done little to remedy,” the report says. “And to make matters worse, our enforcement record advertises that laundering dirty money is a low-risk endeavour in Canada. Money laundering cases rarely go to trial, and often collapse when they do. This appears to have contributed to a rise in professional money laundering operations across the country.”

    The federal government has proposed improvements to Canada’s beneficial ownership transparency laws in the 2019 budget. But the potential changes do not approach the reforms recommended by Transparency International and taken up already by other jurisdictions, such as the U.K.

    The report notes that Canadian lawyers are a significant risk in real estate money laundering, because they do not have to disclose information about money flowing through their trust accounts to Fintrac, Canada’s anti-money-laundering data collector.

    “The good news is that opaque ownership and the other conditions that make our real estate markets vulnerable to money laundering can be addressed with relatively straightforward policy reforms,” the report concludes.

    Recommendations include:

    • Require beneficial owners of real estate to identify themselves to land title authorities, and make that information available to the public in an open data format. Disclosure of beneficial ownership should be a prerequisite for any property transfer
    • Require all companies and trusts registered or transacting in Canada to identify their beneficial owners, and publish that information in a central publicly available registry
    • Amend the Proceeds of Crime (Money Laundering) and Terrorist Financing Act and its regulations to include other real-estate-related businesses such as unregulated mortgage lenders, mortgage brokers, land registries, title and mortgage insurers
    ************************





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  28. Lanzman

    Lanzman Vast, Cool and Unsympathetic Formerly Important

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    And here, ladies and gentlemen, is a worldview so divorced from reality as to remove the proponent from the field of serious debate.

    Yes, humans have a propensity, or capacity, for compassion and morals. But in reality, what humans do is pursue their own perceived short-term interests to the near-total exclusion of all else. Human beings are self-interested, opportunistic, and predatory. The history of humanity is a history of bloodshed and strife, not compassion and moral rectitude. Documents like the American Constitution are put in place to restrain those impulses, not grant rights. Rights are inherent to being human and it is the responsibility of government to protect them. NOT to provide them. The species requires foundational documents, a codified set of acceptable behaviors and practices, because when human beings > Constitution, the result is always, always violence, bloodshed, avarice, mendacity, and greed run amok.

    Rights, actual rights, are inherent to being human. They impose no obligation on anyone else beyond respecting those rights. Anything that requires the time, labor, or compulsion of others is a commodity. Not a right. Housing is a commodity. The freedom to seek out the best you can provide for yourself is a right. In the case of housing, government's only legitimate function is to protect people from one another by regulating harmful practices like building a firetrap. This function has of course been abused and twisted into telling people that they can't control their own property because it "belongs" to the collective, who mostly had nothing to do with creating or maintaining it.
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  29. Dinner

    Dinner 2012 & 2014 Master Prognosticator

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    You don't have a right to live in a given location. If one city is beyond your means move some where else.
  30. Dinner

    Dinner 2012 & 2014 Master Prognosticator

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