Discussion in 'The Red Room' started by Forbin, Aug 10, 2019.
Like who? Corey Booker?
What does beta mean?
I know what betta means! I have several at home.
Oldfellla is jeri ryan baby daddy.
Yes. Ignoring the problem will make it go away.
All y'all are racists.
Tererun sez so!
Between posts like Fruitloop's, the FB Navy friends I have who think they're not racist for not saying slurs and the "woke" progressives on Tumblr who continually speak over marginalized people to score fandom points, the left certainly has a racism problem...but because it's more subtle and wrapped in other progressive-sounding lingo, they get even more pissed off about it than the conservatives do.
Anyone that needs to list their credentials about how/why they can't possibly be racist....is usually a moron at best.
This line of thought begs the questions: what is racism, why is it such a problem exactly, and how to we deal with it?
We ought to focus on the material imbalances in society caused by racism, in terms of wealth and criminal justice especially, rather than getting hung up on microaggressions and thought crimes.
You might say, but Fruitloop, we can walk and chew gum at the same time.
Except we actually cannot. Because the practical effect of nitpicking over gaffes like Biden's and demonizing him for it, is to turn off centrists and conservatives to the cause.
If I'm going to be labeled a "racist" anyway (which has the connotation of being a shitbag) regardless of what I do or say, then the result is:
A. I stop giving a damn, or
B. I fall into the arms of the Trumpists out of spite
If you want to claim that "everyone is a little bit racist" in the Avenue Q sense, I'll grant that. If you want to say that most people struggle with racist stereotypes subconsciously, I'll grant some of that too. But if you want to claim that "everyone is racist" and we're to be judged by our internal struggle with it, as opposed to how we actually treat individuals and the policies we support, well then the mocking comparison to Christian original sin fits quite well.
You can enjoy the ride on the woke high horse, or you can win the hearts and minds to make substantial, material change in this country, but you can't do both.
You ever been to a breeder's convention?
Met a girl in a bowler hat?
One of my students. She's mad for the damn fish, did her final year project on 'em looking at the genetics of the marbling.
You're basically saying we should lie about racism in order to appease right-wingers and get their support for material changes. What support is that? What progressive economic policy would right-wingers support if only they were welcome to use the n-word while doing so? Which justice reform has their backing as long as they get a polite snigger for a racist joke?
There is no such policy.
It's no coincidence that there is no material progressive consensus in bipartisan politics even beyond racism, because the two are not separate issues at all. You started out asking, What is racism, why is it a problem, and how do we deal with it? But then you never answered your first question. Racism is part of the ideological surface of capitalism. It does not merely cause material inequality but is caused by it, and it in turn contributes to the inertia of class difference.
It's no separate issue. It's not walking and chewing gum; it's walking and setting one foot in front of the other.
Look again at the racist statement Biden made. "Poor kids are just as smart as white kids." What was the non-racist version? Poor kids are just as smart as rich kids? Black kids are just as smart as white kids? Either could be a protest against the systematic disenfranchisement of kids, on the basis of class or on the basis of race. Is it a racist illusion that the two are connected? No; it is a racist reality, the reality of racism that makes it more likely for black kids to be poor; AND more likely for black kids, if poor, to be disenfranchised for being poor; AND more likely for poor kids, if black, to be disenfranchised on the basis of race than if they were rich. You don't fix that by looking away. You fix it by looking right at the problem.
You mean, "no negro dialect"?
Thank God you responded before I did
We all remember my conservative phase in the last 2000s/early 2010s, no? Back when Liet called me an oreo for not calling these clowns out on this shit and all of them attacked him about it for years afterwards? And now those same people shit on me for not thinking for myself even though I have it a shot and realized it wasn't for me (to put it mildly).
And not one single person who supposedly had my back over the Liet thing has ever once asked me why I "suddenly" became an angry black woman or tried to meet me halfway. At least the liberals like Aurora that called me pond scum for entertaining that nonsense tried to see where I was coming from..
Granted, I've not interacted enough with Fruitloop on this subject to know if he's genuinely naive on this topic (which is possible) or of he's another Paladin type who jerks off to being as callous as possible is discussion. All I know is I've been called antisemitic for calling out radfem/TERF rhetoric because supposedly a Jewish lesbian created that shit idealogy andaa homophobe for calling out the harrassment of asexuals and bisexuals on Tumblr by "progressives," and yet I'm not out wearing Nazi uniforms or organizing Straight Pride rallies because of it.
I was once very ignorant to why certain things got gay people mad, particularly within the fandom spaces I was a part of, such as fanfics' with slash getting higher warnings than regular ol' het fics. It's a really minor thing to me as a straight and I saw it as a courtesy to let me know "hey, Batman and the Joker are getting it on!" Others saw it as an insult and that their sexuality was not something to warn people over (especially when back then no one warned for actual triggering shit like character deaths or graphic rape scenes.) Years lster, I get their anger, but back then, all I wanted to prove was that I wasn't a bigot and talking over them understandably did not make anyone want to reach out to me and waste effort explaining it.
But I didn't purposely go out my way to be assholes to queer people because of a few people I ran into at one board from it. I just took it as "these people are too sensitive," and found another place to hang at.
Anyone using "those groups are mean!" as a reason not to do self reflect is immature at best and extremely selfish and myopic at worst. Either way, I have no patience for it anymore.
Me either. She's pretty much always been some kind of dingbat as far back as I can remember.
Then you weren't paying attention then. I legit purchased a hard copy of Glenn Beck's Arguing with Idiots that's currently in storage, to my upmost embarrassment and those following me on FB can testify that I had Libertarian Party as my political affiliation like a dumbass since i first created that account until I finally stopped being lazy and took that shit out a few months ago.
Best believe I remember the shit I took from people like @Aurora and @garamet and @Diacanu and @Lt. Mewa for my ignorance.
I was rough to the point of cringe, but given the personal problems and mental illness I was juggling, I'm surprised I was lucid as I was.
I didn't go full "Oreo", like fucking Liet.
I PMed him about that, and I got sniffy self-righteousness for my trouble.
Ah, so you do remember her being right wing.
Hey, thanks for that BTW. I didn't always think I needed defending and even fewer people were speaking up about this shit 10 years ago. :hug: You're a legit dude
(I had plenty of mental issues when I first got here too, but I'm glad you've gotten ways to cope with that as well.)
I'm gonna state for the record that Liet apologized for that to me over PM, which is more than I can say for any of the cuntbags that cheered on Ramen's lynching troll have done. Including Volpone, who was the biggest cheerleader in the Flame Liet campaign over that comment.
I remember anna being 'not crazy' around the same period she characterized herself as being conservative. It's a new definition, but the woman speaks accurately that she didn't always talk nuts. IIRC she would speak in terms of personal responsibility, importance of a good work ethic, and the usefulness of following rules and having good systems, that sort of thing.
EDIT: These days believing in all that's called white/western supremacy, probably using that same weird dictionary referred to above.
Now that cunt doesn’t believe in any of those things!
He should have run that one by Obama first.
That said, I legit didn't know how many systems were put in place predominantly by conservatives to fuck with blacks and minorities in general when I spewed that stuff. Like yeah, I do believe in personal responsibility to not be an asshole and try to do better by your children than what you had...but that doesn't mean we let children starve because of the parents' choices and I don't spend my days parrotting Bill Cosby's respectability politics re: how only "good blacks" deserve to be respected. My life and self-esteem improved 100 percent once I stopped giving a fuck what wypipo think, since most of y'all don't give a fuck either way.
I'm arguing to separate the trivial from the substantial, in order to keep the cause serious and have it be taken seriously. Not sure how that equates to lying. First straw man.
But we do live in a democracy and some "appeasement" will be necessary to build the consensus necessary for real change. That's just how it works.
Nobody said anything about the N-word or racist jokes. Second straw man.
Conversely, what policy wins have been yielded from the woke crowd's strategy of nauseating the opposition with complaints of microaggressions and the generous labeling of "racist?"
But it probably got Trump elected. Well done!
If you want to discuss how systemic racism and toxic capitalism go hand-and-hand, you're preaching to the choir. This falls squarely within my preferred scope of "material" and "substantial."
I'm not sure why you think I or Joe Biden would disagree with any of that. As far as I can tell, he simply misspoke. And as @The Flashlight pointed out, the spirit of his comments were about the natural equality of all children and the need for society to give them a fair shake in life, regardless of background--the exact opposite of racist.
But I get that the hard Left just doesn't like centrist Uncle Joe and will take any opportunity to hammer him, regardless.
Meh... Corey’s alright, but sometimes he goes off with a bowl of word salad while not taking a stand on anything at all and other times he’s good.
Honestly, I like Warren and Buttigieg with Harris running a strong third. I worry about middle America accepting either of them vs. Trump.
That used to be the norm in politics, back in the good old days.
Good ol' Spartacus, give me a break.
I don't think any of them have a chance. Dems best hope is to register as many illegals to vote as possible. Not joking.
See, those two things can't be true at the same time. If he simply misspoke, then there should be a non-racist version of what he said. But I just argued there isn't; at best, there are versions that are less blatantly and thus less noticeably racist. Which means that whatever policy he was advocating falls short of addressing the problem it is supposed to address. Hence my insistence that it is not insubstantial or immaterial.
'course I give a fuck
So you believe the statement "Black kids are just as smart as white kids" (your suggestion) to be racist? Now you've lost me.
It takes a strong level of mental gymnastics and esoteric theorizing to make this argument.
If you want to argue that Biden's understanding of the issues and his proposed solutions fall short of addressing the fundamental problems, that's fair. But that's quite a few steps down from accusing him of being a racist piece of shit, isn't it?
Separate names with a comma.