Discussion in 'The Red Room' started by MikeH92467, Jul 1, 2013.
Doesn't know what NICS is, but wants gun laws beefed up.
Wrong. I have not advocated any such thing.
OK. Can you just come out and explain--in plain English with no mass media buzzwords--what you were hoping to accomplish or want out of us?
That it is terrible when people that get thrown out of titty bars for fighting kill people who are at porno shops in a case of mistaken identity?
That Colt should build a breathylzer into its products?
That an asteroid should hurry up and wipe out all life on Earth?
Because we're doing our best to figure it out but you haven't really thrown us clues.
As far as I can tell, you think Eric Holder is bad and the "gun lobby" should do... something...
And we're bad for trying to derail your well-thought out position.
I still haven't figured out what a "gun lobby" is. It is something CNN and such seem to like to say a lot, but no one seems to be able to tell me what it is.
Actually one thing that did get accomplished is reinforcement of my belief that there are no laws currently on the books or proposed that will bring a consensus of support from pro gun types.
Here's a summary of my own stance...
1) Gun grabbing won't work, is a stupid idea and would lead to criminals having an even greater advantage over the law-abiding.
2) There are no laws on the federal level pending or current that today's pro-gun forces support and trying to pass new restrictive gun laws is a waste of time.
3) Too many people who shouldn't have guns have them, but there is no practical way that I can see to keep shitheads in the original post from getting them without infringing on the rights of responsible people.
4) Too many people see guns as the solution to too many problems
5) I will continue to be lumped in with the "gun grabbers" ... whoever they are.
Well, duh. It's the first room you walk into when you walk through the front doors of the Gun Hotel.
The gun lobby is apparently the only lobby that's eeevil, because I never hear anyone condemning the other gazillion lobbies.
Oil Lobby and Big-Pharma Lobby.
Tobacco and Finance.
defense contractor lobby and RIAA lobby
I heard the Hobby Lobby is trying to get out of employee abortions.
Hey! I work for a defense contractor! I'm part of TWO evil lobbies! W00t!!
You heathen Yankee!
Ya know some of us aren't automatically trying to shit on you. You wanted a dialog. I'm still willing to have one. So I'm going ask again, and forgive me if I missed it, what would you propose that you believe would have prevented this situation?
I do take issue with your #2 above. Many of us are for laws mandating the reporting of those that have been adjudicated to be mentally ill into NCICs. That is just one example. Then there are the laws already on the books that are not being enforced. For example, in 2005 there were 135 prosecutions (.2 percent of all denials) of those who failed an NCIC check. That number in its self is abysmal. But its declined steadily since then, down to 44 in 2010 (.06 percent of all denials). Yes I know that the shrub was in office in 05, but let's pretend that we're not gonna go down that distraction route. Now if by #2 you mean the recently defeated gun control bill, you are 100% right on that myself and others would oppose efforts like that. It would have done nothing but impact lawful gun owners, undo portions of the 1986 FOPA, and accomplished absolutely nothing. It was a Trojan horse and I and many others pointed out how line by line in multiple posts here.
As for your number 4 it can be also said that there are those who see guns as being the source of all evil and that were guns removed then everything would be simply hunky dory.
So lets dialog.
Dialogue is great if everybody understands where everybody is coming from. That's why I posted those statements.
As far as disagreeing on number 2 ... fine. However, I think it should be noted that while the Florida Legislature passed a new law forbidding Baker Acted persons from having a gun with one vote, Governor Scott had to endure a hate mail campaign from pressure groups who wanted him to veto it.
As far as NICS, you may support it, but I suspect that if anyone came up with proposals for beefing it up and making it effective that there would be a sudden outpouring of opposition from people who suddenly would find it's the beginning of the slippery slope toward federal jackpots come-a-gun-grabbing
As far as Number 4 is concerned anyone who believes that guns are a source of all evil are just as ridiculous as those who believe guns are the solution to every problem.
Nope, I think most of us are in favor of adding mental health records to the NICS check. Again, it's the ACLU and other liberal groups who oppose that, because they don't want people with mental health issues to be afraid to seek help, fearing they'll end up in a database.
What we don't want to see happen with NICS is an inclusion of every little thing that a person ever did, designed to deny the maximum number of people - say one arrest for drunk driving at the age of 16 that was never repeated, or one verbal domestic argument that had the neighbors calling the cops 25 years ago. NICS should include only information that bears on a person's legal right to own a gun, that is, whether they are currently denied that right by a judge, due to being convicted of a crime or being mentally unfit.
That's because as written the bill is hard to read. It took me reading it three times, and knowing how the state of Florida's mental health care laws are written for me to realize what it really did. Even then, I'll even go so far that to say with creative interpretation it could be abused. Had the bill been written in plain text, there would not have been those problems. That's why I am lobbying for some nuanced changes be made to the law in the next session of the legislature.
Ass for NICS, you keep saying "beefing it up" and I keep asking "Define Beefing it up." Until you clarify, no one can discuss it with you. What do you see are the failings of the current NICS? What would you propose to address those shortcomings? Are you talking about funding more operators for the calls to be made to? Are you talking about new hardware/ Are you talking about expanding the data that can be held in it? Mandatory reporting of additional information?
Look, I've already admitted, I don't know a damn thing about NICS. It was brought up by gun rights supporters as an example of a law that can be more strongly enforced instead of passing new laws. I'm not going to say that it can or cannot be beefed up, gun rights supporters say it could be better enforced. How about if the people who know something about it, actually lay out a proposal for making it a more effective law, instead of just using my admitted ignorance of it as a distraction from the main conversation?
NICS is only as good as the data it gets.
1) Most states don't report the mentally ill. That's not a Federal issue. It's a State issue. Virginia didn't report until after the VT shooting. Example: I can't do anything about Montana refusing to pass a law that requires MTDMH to report the data to NICS.
2) Those who are denied for criminal reasons aren't prosecuted but in very, very rare circumstances. See Frontline's post.
That's...it. That's all anyone needs to know about and all you can do to NICS to make it more effective.
Can't recall the hi-ranking LEO who I saw interviewed about why more NICS rejects weren't prosecuted. But he basically said there isn't the manpower, time or will to go after someone who tried and failed to buy a gun, when they have more tangible threats to deal with.
So really we only would know if NICS doesn't work. If it does work, potential disasters fail to occur.
Yeah, that's one way of putting it.
Having been a Health and Safety Director, I can say that it's like workplace safety programs. People don't notice when safety programs are working because nothing happens.
Like the guy standing on the corner in NYC clapping. Someone asks him what he's doing.
"Keeping polar bears away."
"But there are no polar bears in New York!"
The most relevant question on this topic has been ignored...
Who the fuck is going to an adult bookstore in 2013?
It's the best way to keep the NSA from tracking your pr0n.
You sure about that? Yeah sure you could pay cash, but they will know where you're at just the same. They can ping your phone or with services like OnStar they can track you just the same.
Separate names with a comma.