McDonald's Pay Tangent

Discussion in 'The Red Room' started by Paladin, Dec 11, 2019.

  1. tafkats

    tafkats That'll put marzipan in your pie plate, bingo! Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2004
    Messages:
    20,607
    Location:
    Sunnydale
    Ratings:
    +36,029
    :strawman:
    • Agree Agree x 2
  2. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

    Joined:
    May 28, 2004
    Messages:
    35,996
    Location:
    Ireland
    Ratings:
    +28,371
    That the economy is structured in such way that people must fetishise "work" which it is imperative to provide for everyone is a serious problem.
    It would be great if we could automate away service industry jobs like these. But for that to be the case, nobody should be relying on them to eek out a marginal existence.
    • Agree Agree x 2
  3. mburtonk

    mburtonk mburtonkulous

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2004
    Messages:
    9,597
    Location:
    Minnesnowta
    Ratings:
    +6,104
    This reads like an ad for higher minimum wage, honesty.

    If the goal of so-called "entry level" jobs is for people to move out of them, how can they do that when working is all they have time and ability to do?
  4. tafkats

    tafkats That'll put marzipan in your pie plate, bingo! Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2004
    Messages:
    20,607
    Location:
    Sunnydale
    Ratings:
    +36,029
    Evidence to back this up: Stockton, California, did an experiment where they gave 125 randomly selected residents $500 a month, no strings attached. Those people were more likely than the control group to have full-time employment by the time.

    https://www.npr.org/2021/03/04/9736...trings-attached-stipends-pays-off-study-finds

    This isn't necessarily an argument for UBI -- the participants knew the extra money would expire, so the motivating factors were different, and it was a small group, so it's impossible to determine whether implementing the same thing systemwide would be inflationary enough to cancel out its own benefits -- but it does demonstrate that having more money makes it easier to do things to improve your situation, and the less you have, the less likely you are to be able to get out of a bad situation.
    • Agree Agree x 3
  5. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

    Joined:
    May 28, 2004
    Messages:
    35,996
    Location:
    Ireland
    Ratings:
    +28,371
    At bottom, he doesn't really care about the outcomes, hellish and dystopian as they might be. Debating this on those grounds is therefore a fools errand.

    For UA, the elevated principles of self-reliance are an end in themselves, come what may.
    Last edited: May 4, 2021
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • popcorn popcorn x 2
  6. Lanzman

    Lanzman Vast, Cool and Unsympathetic Formerly Important

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2004
    Messages:
    33,228
    Location:
    Someplace high and cold
    Ratings:
    +33,400
    Yes, God forbid anyone should be self-reliant and not need or want The State to look after them . . .
  7. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

    Joined:
    May 28, 2004
    Messages:
    35,996
    Location:
    Ireland
    Ratings:
    +28,371
    I have no problem with it applying to "anyone". I mean, if you're doing well with it, then good on you. That it should apply to everyone, all the time, regardless of situation is the proposition here.
    • Agree Agree x 2
  8. spot261

    spot261 I don't want the game to end

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2018
    Messages:
    9,289
    Ratings:
    +13,133
    I guarantee you are not self reliant.
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • popcorn popcorn x 1
  9. Jenee

    Jenee Ind. Jenee of Winterfell

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2008
    Messages:
    17,854
    Location:
    Touring the Galaxy
    Ratings:
    +9,893
    It's true. He gets very annoyed when I can't make up my mind and seem to be wasting everyone else's time. And, of all my friends, I'm the one who is usually sitting with a closed menu in front of me waiting for everyone else to make up their mind. I walk to the cafeteria with coworkers, I'm halfway through my meal before the rest have picked out their food and paid for it and finally sat down to eat.

    So, I kinda understand how annoyed he gets cuz I get that way with other people.
    • Love Love x 1
  10. Lanzman

    Lanzman Vast, Cool and Unsympathetic Formerly Important

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2004
    Messages:
    33,228
    Location:
    Someplace high and cold
    Ratings:
    +33,400
    "Self reliant" does not necessarily mean homesteading in the wilderness, you know. :garamet:
  11. Jenee

    Jenee Ind. Jenee of Winterfell

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2008
    Messages:
    17,854
    Location:
    Touring the Galaxy
    Ratings:
    +9,893
    I have up and moved and completely changed my life several times when I was younger.

    but ..., I had nothing to lose. nothing to risk.

    Now, I have things. I have a pretty good job with better than average wages. I have stuff. I have two dependents.

    ... It's not so easy to just up and move and change my life.

    and it's very frustrating.

    So, yea, just telling someone to move is like ..., the least helpful answer out there.
    • Agree Agree x 5
  12. Jenee

    Jenee Ind. Jenee of Winterfell

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2008
    Messages:
    17,854
    Location:
    Touring the Galaxy
    Ratings:
    +9,893
    When talking about workers wages for the 99%, yes, it sure the fuck does.
    • Thank You! Thank You! x 2
    • Facepalm Facepalm x 1
  13. Uncle Albert

    Uncle Albert Mimimimimi mimimi!!

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2004
    Messages:
    52,661
    Location:
    'twixt my nethers
    Ratings:
    +21,834
    I find this entirely fair. :techman:
  14. Ten Lubak

    Ten Lubak Salty Dog

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2006
    Messages:
    9,818
    Ratings:
    +19,352
    You work for the government
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Funny Funny x 3
    • Winner Winner x 2
    • Facepalm Facepalm x 1
  15. Lanzman

    Lanzman Vast, Cool and Unsympathetic Formerly Important

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2004
    Messages:
    33,228
    Location:
    Someplace high and cold
    Ratings:
    +33,400
    Yes. By choice. You understand "choice," right? That thing that statists don't want you to have?
    • Dumb Dumb x 2
    • Facepalm Facepalm x 1
  16. matthunter

    matthunter Ice Bear

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2004
    Messages:
    19,844
    Location:
    Bottom of the bearstack, top of the world
    Ratings:
    +28,600
    OK, so break down your average day.

    Demonstrate how you don't rely on anyone else. Or only rely on others to the extent they can achieve what you need on their own resources plus your recompense.

    Because I'm betting we won't even need to get to "brushing my teeth" before we hit some level of reliance that involves such a high level of infrastructure that taxes are required.
  17. Jenee

    Jenee Ind. Jenee of Winterfell

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2008
    Messages:
    17,854
    Location:
    Touring the Galaxy
    Ratings:
    +9,893
    Let's take [apart] the house in which he lives - everyone involved in cutting the lumber, making nails and screws, how do you even make drywall(?) - then there's electricity for the alarm to go off - and who made that alarm? and the bed? and the sheets? who paid for water to be piped to his house?

    I'm exhausted already.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  18. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

    Joined:
    May 5, 2004
    Messages:
    19,456
    Ratings:
    +13,357
    If you had any balls you'd quit taking my money and do something constructive with your life.

    You are just another fucking parasite.

    /discuss

    :D
    • Funny Funny x 2
    • popcorn popcorn x 2
  19. Amaris

    Amaris Communist Synthesizer

    Joined:
    May 8, 2004
    Messages:
    16,384
    Location:
    United States
    Ratings:
    +11,475
    Back in my day you could get a hamburger for a nickel, and still had money left to ride the bus to the 4 o'clock picture show, buy a ticket, a large popcorn, and some Jujubees! Oh, they had such movies then!
    • Funny Funny x 5
    • popcorn popcorn x 1
  20. Ancalagon

    Ancalagon outta my way Administrator Formerly Important

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2004
    Messages:
    44,891
    Location:
    Downtown
    Ratings:
    +38,533
    Good thread on how the ‘labor shortage’ is bullshit.

    If there was an actual shortage (on a large scale, not just pockets) we would see a rise in pay (to attract and retain workers) and/or a rise in hours for current employers.

    We are seeing neither.

    Also, some links to studies on how last year’s $600 UI boost had statistically insignificant effects on employment.

    • Agree Agree x 2
    • popcorn popcorn x 1
  21. Lanzman

    Lanzman Vast, Cool and Unsympathetic Formerly Important

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2004
    Messages:
    33,228
    Location:
    Someplace high and cold
    Ratings:
    +33,400
    Ah, the old "it takes a village" argument. How original. So I wake up to the sound of my alarm clock, do my morning ablutions (which as you so presciently observed, includes brushing my teeth with my high-tech toothbrush), get dressed in my factory-made clothing, and either go in my studio to work from home (COVID, don'cha know) on my computers which were produced by slave labor in some third-world hellhole of worker exploitation under a fascist/socialist/totalitarian regime or get in my industrially-manufactured Jeep and drive to my cushy government job.

    That I chose to pursue, free of coercion. So in other words, I relied on myself to make that decision to accept these particular terms of employment.

    Then, since my time and effort costs money (alas, the evils of collective capitalism), I am compensated for my labor. BUT, given the particulars of my job, I am what is known as an "exempt" employee, which for this discussion means essentially that I'm not allowed to join a glorious worker's labor union to protect me from Evil Capitalist Overlords who might exploit me. Even though I'm a government worker and the government is not a for-profit enterprise. Strangely, if I have to work overtime I get paid for those hours as well, provided they're approved ahead of time by management.

    At the end of the brutal eight and a half hour (have to account for my 30-minute lunch break) workday I retire to my chores and amusements. All of the expenses incurred during these activities are covered by my paycheck, plus a little. No-one helps me with these chores. Alas, perhaps I am being exploited after all, as I have no support staff to Take Care Of Me. Indeed, should I have some chore that is beyond my own capabilities, I have to pay for assistance. I. Have to pay. Out of my hard-earned compensation which came from me assisting someone else with their own chores, tho in that case it's a group arrangement in the form of being part of a government workforce.

    So yes, I was not set down naked in the wilderness, left to forage for roots and berries while fashioning whatever I can with stone knives and bearskins. However, much like being set down naked in the wilderness, I was dropped into a society and culture which I had no voice in shaping, so I have made my own way through its mysteries and obstacles, relying largely on myself to do so. In other words, I exploit my environment much like any other life form, the key difference being my environment is largely an artificial one. I paid attention in school and acquired knowledge, which I then used to arrange support for myself using those things available to me in my surroundings. There have been ups and downs, I've been unemployed and re-employed, found companionship and lost it, had triumphs (recently got an award at work for example) and tragedies.

    I exist in the environment around me. Whether I rise or fall is largely dependent on my own choices and actions, tho of course one can't discount the chance of an errant nuke spoiling my day. Self-reliance does not mean, as you seem to assume it does, existing on a deserted island someplace trying to subsist on coconuts and raw crab meat. It means making your way in the world as best you can, making use of what is available around you. Someone else made my toothbrush and toothpaste, so I make use of that. Someone else went to dental school, so I make use of that. I know how to do technical things, so someone else makes use of my skills to further their own goals, which situation I in turn exploit to my own benefit. That's what "self reliance" means, not existing all alone in a void. I don't go thru my days moaning that the world owes me support and desired luxuries, I arrange to procure those things myself.
    • TL;DR TL;DR x 2
  22. Jenee

    Jenee Ind. Jenee of Winterfell

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2008
    Messages:
    17,854
    Location:
    Touring the Galaxy
    Ratings:
    +9,893
    Total weirdness happened
    Last edited: May 4, 2021
  23. Jenee

    Jenee Ind. Jenee of Winterfell

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2008
    Messages:
    17,854
    Location:
    Touring the Galaxy
    Ratings:
    +9,893
    Oh, no. You don't get to do that.

    If you do, then you accept that others in the world, regardless of their lack of skills, contribute as much to your comfort as you do. Either that, or, by your own essay, acknowledge you are being intellectually dishonest.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  24. matthunter

    matthunter Ice Bear

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2004
    Messages:
    19,844
    Location:
    Bottom of the bearstack, top of the world
    Ratings:
    +28,600
    And what society does is ensure that those mechanisms are there.

    If no-one is going into dentistry because it doesn't pay or because the education is too expensive, society needs to tip the scales. Or you're SOL when you have an abscess, because YOU alone cannot fix the situation.

    Except now it's the folk cooking and serving your burger who need society to do the tipping, because regular tipping isn't cutting it.
    • Agree Agree x 2
  25. Lanzman

    Lanzman Vast, Cool and Unsympathetic Formerly Important

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2004
    Messages:
    33,228
    Location:
    Someplace high and cold
    Ratings:
    +33,400
    And how do you support yourself? Got a job? Fucking parasite . . . sucking off of someone else's enterprise and ideas. I bet you even take advantage of every tax break you can, too.
  26. Lanzman

    Lanzman Vast, Cool and Unsympathetic Formerly Important

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2004
    Messages:
    33,228
    Location:
    Someplace high and cold
    Ratings:
    +33,400
    First, good work on catching and furthering my sneaky reference there. Well done. :techman:

    Second, I'm not denying the role of society. I'm pointing out that one exists and exploits the environment one finds oneself in. That's what self-reliance is, working to your own benefit as best you can. Not sitting on the couch watching Oprah while whining that your welfare check isn't big enough to get you that 72" 8K flatscreen you think you should have.
    • Facepalm Facepalm x 1
  27. Jenee

    Jenee Ind. Jenee of Winterfell

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2008
    Messages:
    17,854
    Location:
    Touring the Galaxy
    Ratings:
    +9,893
    Yea. :rolleyes: that was sneaky ....

    Good. We've only been trying to point it out to you (and others) for at least 15 years.

    And, we've lost you again.

    And, no matter how "self reliant" you think you are, you still buy into stupidity like this.
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Facepalm Facepalm x 1
  28. Ancalagon

    Ancalagon outta my way Administrator Formerly Important

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2004
    Messages:
    44,891
    Location:
    Downtown
    Ratings:
    +38,533
    If anyone is wondering how stale and recycled Lanzman’s bumper sticker ideology is, Oprah has been off the air for over a decade.
    • Funny Funny x 4
    • Thank You! Thank You! x 1
  29. Lanzman

    Lanzman Vast, Cool and Unsympathetic Formerly Important

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2004
    Messages:
    33,228
    Location:
    Someplace high and cold
    Ratings:
    +33,400
    It's a Married With Children reference, shutta you face. :dendroica:
  30. Ten Lubak

    Ten Lubak Salty Dog

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2006
    Messages:
    9,818
    Ratings:
    +19,352
    I understand choice perfectly - like I wish you'd make the choice to not always bitch about the nanny state while collecting a paycheck from the government

    Public sector workers, yeeeesh
    • Agree Agree x 1