Mueller Investigation

Discussion in 'The Red Room' started by Quest, Aug 3, 2017.

  1. Quest

    Quest Did you bring your handcuffs? Staff Member Administrator

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    Not everything that doesn't go your way is rigged. This is a serious problem in our culture. It's one of Trump's favorite words too. The Russia investigation is rigged. The election is rigged if he loses. Sometimes you try your best and still come up short. That doesn't mean the contest was rigged; that's just life.
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  2. Captain Conspiracy

    Captain Conspiracy Making Frogs Gay Again

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    But this was rigged, Donna Brazil even admitted it.
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  3. Quest

    Quest Did you bring your handcuffs? Staff Member Administrator

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    Hillary started out with the same advantages in '08 and none of that mattered once Obama started surging. Bernie Sanders has a small core of very dedicated supporters, but his appeal is limited. He would never have received as many votes as he did if it wasn't for anti-Clinton sentiment.
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  4. Captain Conspiracy

    Captain Conspiracy Making Frogs Gay Again

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    So, still doesn’t mean the DNC didn’t rig the primary in her favor. If they hadn’t, there’s a good chance Bernie would have won and Trump might have had a harder time.
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  5. K.

    K. Sober

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    No, see, that's why 'rig' is such a bad word here, because it implies exactly that. Yes, the DNC favoured Hillary unfairly; but no, Bernie would not have won the nomination otherwise, and if he had for some other reason, he would not have beaten a regular Republican opponent, and he certainly wouldn't have beaten the Russian campaign that did win the election.
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  6. Quest

    Quest Did you bring your handcuffs? Staff Member Administrator

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    Bernie had no chance then and he still doesn't.

    Not only that, but he's still the one most likely to fuck things up for the eventual nominee. :brood:
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  7. Tererun

    Tererun Magical Girl

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    That is what rigging is. Giving Hillary the questions, making Bernie jump through different hoops, and an unbalanced playing field that was made that way to rig the game. Bernie's campaign had it's own problems like starting too late, and him having a more left and progressive view that might not have made it with the moderates. However, it does not remove the problem of DNC corruption and attempt to decide internally who got the nomination and rig the process for Hillary. Not addressing the problem means it will continue. Just because the dems only opponent is a pit of scum does not mean they should not raise their bar and participate properly.

    In the end their hang up on Hillary because she was in command of their power structure was a huge weakness that may have prevented better candidates from participation given how they made it her turn no matter what else was happening. Wasn't her biggest weakness her corruption and command of the dem party and the RNC hammered her on that and that hate was what kept voters at home and drove republicans to the polls in great numbers in the anti Hillary states? Bernie was just the guy who stepped up and did not care his party had already put Hillary as the candidate.

    Yes, this is a problem considering Joe Biden seems to be who they have picked to win this time, and he is Hillary 2.0. Now we have the same problem with a weak candidate who has a lot of baggage, but this time we have a field of other people who are doomed if the party has not fixed it's problems.
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  8. Quest

    Quest Did you bring your handcuffs? Staff Member Administrator

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    I really don't get the debate question thing. Hillary didn't win any votes because she out-debated Bernie. Besides, any candidate who is caught off guard by a debate question wasn't prepared enough to be out there to begin with.
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  9. tafkats

    tafkats That'll put marzipan in your pie plate, bingo! Moderator

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    The debate question is a big deal because the Bernie Bots want it to be. Did Hillary's campaign knowing a debate question in advance change anything at all? Probably not, but personality cults don't need logic.
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  10. tafkats

    tafkats That'll put marzipan in your pie plate, bingo! Moderator

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    Today in "how the hell is this not a headline from the Borowitz Report or The Onion" ...

    Screenshot 2019-05-03 at 11.20.46 PM.png
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  11. K.

    K. Sober

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    Fucking unbelievable.
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  12. Tuckerfan

    Tuckerfan BMF Staff Member Moderator

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    I'm not seeing how one can make such an assertation. (Not that I think it's a given that Bernie would have beaten Trump.) For starters, a percentage of voters just didn't like Hillary and wouldn't have voted for her, no matter what. Next, I doubt that if Bernie had gotten the nomination that the dump of DNC emails would have had the impact on his campaign that it did Hillary's. I'm also not certain that if Bernie had gotten the nomination that the hacked DNC emails would have been released. I mean, they hardly would have reflected upon his campaign as much as they did Hillary's. Next, I don't think that too many people would have cared if Comey released a letter in October saying that they were reopening the FBI investigation into Hillary's missing emails. Then there's the fact that ~100 million registered voters couldn't be bothered to get off their ass to vote in 2016. Would that number have remained the same if Bernie got the nomination? If it was different, would it be more or less? If it was fewer, how many of them would have voted for Bernie, and how many would have voted for Trump? I don't know how to answer those questions.

    Then there's the kind of opposition research that the GOP would have dug up on Bernie. What would it have been, and what kind of impact would it have made on the public? Presently, some polls have Bernie in second place behind Biden. For a guy that many blame for Hillary losing the election, that's pretty good. Obviously, there are many people who wouldn't be able to bring themselves to vote for Bernie after he beat Hillary, but how would those numbers compare to the those who wouldn't vote for Hillary (for whatever reason)? I don't know. And I don't think that anyone can know, simply because the people who vote in primaries are different than those who vote in the general, we don't know how the Republicans would have responded to Bernie getting the nomination, and we don't know if Bernie would have made the same mistakes (taking certain states for granted) that Hillary did.
  13. Tererun

    Tererun Magical Girl

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    It is not about debate questions, but rather the poor choices of the DNC and their corruption.

    Of course when we have Biden 2020 and another four years of trump perhaps you can tell us how blaming the Bernie supporters for wanting a fair playing field is working. This is not about Bernie, this is about not having the idiot dem establishment run their losers again.

    It is acceptance of the establishment rule like this that is going to split the dems because most of the progressives are tired of the same corrupt leadership. People want a change which is why Bernie did as well as he did, but clearly this new house shows us that Bernie is not the only one they will accept. This has nothing to do with Bernie, and everything to do with the corporate dems pissing off the younger and minorities with their can't do attitude.
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  14. Tererun

    Tererun Magical Girl

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    If you look at Bernie's success and Trump's success you see a huge desire for someone different on both sides. That has little to do with either of them and more to do with Hillary being the same old crap, and the rest of the republican clown car being the same old crap. Trump was able to capitalize entirely on that movement because Hillary was the same old shit. Lots of people gave trumo a chance because he was supposedly not an insider. You were never going to show his inside dealings off with the ultimate insider running against him. I don't know if Bernie would have beaten him, but he would have at least capitalized on some of the disgust with both parties that made the wave trump rode in on.

    I am hoping the dems do not get caught doing the same thing and let their field play out. If they get caught favoring Biden then all they can rely on is trump to scare people to the polls. We saw how well that worked last time. The country has not fallen apart under trump so that may not be a great selling point.
  15. Dinner

    Dinner 2012 & 2014 Master Prognosticator

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    Way to miss the point, dip shit. What part of the DNC has publicly admitted they actively attempted to rig the primaries for Hillary against Bernie because the DNC was packed with Hillary cronies do you not understand? This isn't hypothetical, this is fact, and they publicly admitted it.

    Also, no, when you find serious wrong doing you don't just pretend it never happened. Instead you try to make sure such corruption can not happen again.
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  16. spot261

    spot261 Fresh Meat

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    Whaaaaaa??????

    So, the two prime suspects have looked through the police report and decided on their own innocence?
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  17. shootER

    shootER Insubordinate...and churlish Administrator

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    :corn:

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  18. Order2Chaos

    Order2Chaos Ultimate... Immortal Administrator

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  19. Tererun

    Tererun Magical Girl

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    It is because they are not comparing facts as much as making prepared speeches. It is harder to improvise than to have your answers prepared and rehearsed.
  20. matthunter

    matthunter Good enough

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    The House is set to vote Wednesday on holding Barr in contempt for not releasing the unredacted report to them despite reasonable accommodations regarding sensitive information.
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  21. Quest

    Quest Did you bring your handcuffs? Staff Member Administrator

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    STATEMENT BY FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTORS

    We are former federal prosecutors. We served under both Republican and Democratic administrations at different levels of the federal system: as line attorneys, supervisors, special prosecutors, United States Attorneys, and senior officials at the Department of Justice. The offices in which we served were small, medium, and large; urban, suburban, and rural; and located in all parts of our country.

    Each of us believes that the conduct of President Trump described in Special Counsel Robert Mueller’s report would, in the case of any other person not covered by the Office of Legal Counsel policy against indicting a sitting President, result in multiple felony charges for obstruction of justice.

    The Mueller report describes several acts that satisfy all of the elements for an obstruction charge: conduct that obstructed or attempted to obstruct the truth-finding process, as to which the evidence of corrupt intent and connection to pending proceedings is overwhelming. These include:

    · The President’s efforts to fire Mueller and to falsify evidence about that effort;

    · The President’s efforts to limit the scope of Mueller’s investigation to exclude his conduct; and

    · The President’s efforts to prevent witnesses from cooperating with investigators probing him and his campaign.

    Attempts to fire Mueller and then create false evidence

    Despite being advised by then-White House Counsel Don McGahn that he could face legal jeopardy for doing so, Trump directed McGahn on multiple occasions to fire Mueller or to gin up false conflicts of interest as a pretext for getting rid of the Special Counsel. When these acts began to come into public view, Trump made “repeated efforts to have McGahn deny the story” — going so far as to tell McGahn to write a letter “for our files” falsely denying that Trump had directed Mueller’s termination.

    Firing Mueller would have seriously impeded the investigation of the President and his associates — obstruction in its most literal sense. Directing the creation of false government records in order to prevent or discredit truthful testimony is similarly unlawful. The Special Counsel’s report states: “Substantial evidence indicates that in repeatedly urging McGahn to dispute that he was ordered to have the Special Counsel terminated, the President acted for the purpose of influencing McGahn’s account in order to deflect or prevent scrutiny of the President’s conduct toward the investigation.”

    Attempts to limit the Mueller investigation

    The report describes multiple efforts by the president to curtail the scope of the Special Counsel’s investigation.

    First, the President repeatedly pressured then-Attorney General Jeff Sessions to reverse his legally-mandated decision to recuse himself from the investigation. The President’s stated reason was that he wanted an attorney general who would “protect” him, including from the Special Counsel investigation. He also directed then-White House Chief of Staff Reince Priebus to fire Sessions and Priebus refused.

    Second, after McGahn told the President that he could not contact Sessions himself to discuss the investigation, Trump went outside the White House, instructing his former campaign manager, Corey Lewandowski, to carry a demand to Sessions to direct Mueller to confine his investigation to future elections. Lewandowski tried and failed to contact Sessions in private. After a second meeting with Trump, Lewandowski passed Trump’s message to senior White House official Rick Dearborn, who Lewandowski thought would be a better messenger because of his prior relationship with Sessions. Dearborn did not pass along Trump’s message.

    As the report explains, “Substantial evidence indicates that the President’s effort to have Sessions limit the scope of the Special Counsel’s investigation to future election interference was intended to prevent further investigative scrutiny of the President’s and his campaign’s conduct” — in other words, the President employed a private citizen to try to get the Attorney General to limit the scope of an ongoing investigation into the President and his associates.

    All of this conduct — trying to control and impede the investigation against the President by leveraging his authority over others — is similar to conduct we have seen charged against other public officials and people in powerful positions.

    Witness tampering and intimidation

    The Special Counsel’s report establishes that the President tried to influence the decisions of both Michael Cohen and Paul Manafort with regard to cooperating with investigators. Some of this tampering and intimidation, including the dangling of pardons, was done in plain sight via tweets and public statements; other such behavior was done via private messages through private attorneys, such as Trump counsel Rudy Giuliani’s message to Cohen’s lawyer that Cohen should “sleep well tonight, you have friends in high places.”

    Of course, these aren’t the only acts of potential obstruction detailed by the Special Counsel. It would be well within the purview of normal prosecutorial judgment also to charge other acts detailed in the report.

    We emphasize that these are not matters of close professional judgment. Of course, there are potential defenses or arguments that could be raised in response to an indictment of the nature we describe here. In our system, every accused person is presumed innocent and it is always the government’s burden to prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt. But, to look at these facts and say that a prosecutor could not probably sustain a conviction for obstruction of justice — the standard set out in Principles of Federal Prosecution — runs counter to logic and our experience.

    As former federal prosecutors, we recognize that prosecuting obstruction of justice cases is critical because unchecked obstruction — which allows intentional interference with criminal investigations to go unpunished — puts our whole system of justice at risk. We believe strongly that, but for the OLC memo, the overwhelming weight of professional judgment would come down in favor of prosecution for the conduct outlined in the Mueller Report.

    If you are a former federal prosecutor and would like to add your name below, click here. Protect Democracy will update this list daily with new signatories.

    Signatories have been vetted to the best of our ability.
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  22. spot261

    spot261 Fresh Meat

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    Oh my word.
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  23. Captain Conspiracy

    Captain Conspiracy Making Frogs Gay Again

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    I think we should have a white flag or throw down the towel smiley because that's the most damning thing I've seen to date and it definitely looks like obstruction. Impeachment proceedings in this political climate would probably just get Trump re-elected though.
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  24. We Are Borg

    We Are Borg Rey of sunshine

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  25. Dinner

    Dinner 2012 & 2014 Master Prognosticator

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    The fact is we don't know if Bernie would have won or not without the DNC rigging, and yes they did rig, the primary process. We do know that Hillary felt so insecure about losing that she unfairly and illegally got her cronies in the DNC to fuck up Super Tuesday for Bernie because Hillary was afraid of losing yet again.

    That is a fact. The court even ruled the DNC behaved in an illegal manner though Bernie dropped the case and made an out of court settlement with the DNC in order to try to patch things over.
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  26. Tuckerfan

    Tuckerfan BMF Staff Member Moderator

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  27. Quest

    Quest Did you bring your handcuffs? Staff Member Administrator

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    https://www.politico.com/amp/story/2019/05/07/wray-fbi-spying-trump-campaign-1308520

    Anybody who still believes there's about to be some massive round up and arrest of Obama Deep State agents who illegally spied on Trump is straying into Qanon territory.
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  28. Captain Conspiracy

    Captain Conspiracy Making Frogs Gay Again

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    You think Obama people would go after Obama people?:unuts:
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  29. garamet

    garamet "The whole world is watching."

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    I see there are still some people here who don't know the difference between opposition research and "spying." :jayzus:
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  30. Quest

    Quest Did you bring your handcuffs? Staff Member Administrator

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    Well, let's be clear about this. The FBI was not engaged in "opposition research." They were responding appropriately to credible intelligence they received about a foreign espionage threat. IOW, doing their jobs.
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