Mueller Investigation

Discussion in 'The Red Room' started by Quest, Aug 3, 2017.

  1. Quest

    Quest Liberty and Justice Staff Member Administrator

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    I'll go on record that the U.S. should not be looking to interfere with or otherwise influence the outcome of U.K. elections.

    I don't really blame Russia for trying to interfere with both countries' elections (as they did in the Brexit referendum), but that doesn't mean we have to accept it or take it lying down.
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  2. spot261

    spot261 George "The Animal" Steele tribute act

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    It seems the Trump administration has taken a distinct interest in the UK of late.

    Frankly I'd rather they kept their vandalism (sorry, "politics") over there, we've got enough people of our own wantonly destroying everything that makes us civilised and relevant.
  3. Order2Chaos

    Order2Chaos Ultimate... Immortal Administrator

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    Separate Sovereigns doctrine survives Gamble, (with, oddly, only RBG and Gorsuch dissenting) which means Paul Manafort and Michael Cohen are well and truly fucked. Not even a pardon will save them from prison.
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  4. Minsc&Boo

    Minsc&Boo Fresh Meat

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    Is trump a pedobear? should Dayton look into tat
  5. tafkats

    tafkats That'll put marzipan in your pie plate, bingo! Moderator

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    I gotta say, it's nice when there's a Supreme Court decision that is neither unanimous nor decided largely along party lines ... where you can tell that there are real issues to wrestle with (therefore the lack of unanimity), but that justices reached their conclusions through reasons other than politics.
  6. Federal Farmer

    Federal Farmer Corn of Coblin

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    I doubt you’d be jumping up for joy if this had nothing to do with Trump.
  7. tafkats

    tafkats That'll put marzipan in your pie plate, bingo! Moderator

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    Did you see me jumping for joy?

    Frankly, whether or not Michael Cohen and Paul Manafort face state charges isn't even on my top 100 list of things to care about.

    But go ahead and congratulate yourself on another imaginary "gotcha."
  8. Federal Farmer

    Federal Farmer Corn of Coblin

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    You seem to be okay with the ruling. No doubt you are since you and Alito have a strange understanding of the Constitution.
  9. tafkats

    tafkats That'll put marzipan in your pie plate, bingo! Moderator

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    Actually, if anything, my comment was based on Ginsberg and Gorsuch being in agreement.

    But as a states' rights fetishist, shouldn't you be all for the ruling?
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  10. Federal Farmer

    Federal Farmer Corn of Coblin

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    No because as Gorsuch pointed out, it goes against the framers' intent.


    https://slate.com/news-and-politics...uch-double-jeopardy-supreme-court-gamble.html
  11. spot261

    spot261 George "The Animal" Steele tribute act

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    Does it really never occur to you that something can be simultaneously unconstitutional and right?

    Note I'm not making any comment here about the rulings in question, rather asking a broader question about the nature of constitutionality.
  12. Federal Farmer

    Federal Farmer Corn of Coblin

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    In this case it’s both unconstitutional and not the right thing to do. I cannot think of a case where some is unconstitutional, yet the right thing to do. I’m sure there might be one, but I can’t think of anything right off hand.
  13. Bailey

    Bailey It's always Christmas Eve Super Moderator

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    Out of curiosity, which year do you feel that constitutional thing is the right thing rule became true?
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  14. spot261

    spot261 George "The Animal" Steele tribute act

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    I promise you the world is chock full of decisions where the right thing (or the more defensible options) would violate the US constitution.

    There have been countless attempts to codify the ethics and morals of human behaviour, none of which have ever fully succeeded. The constitution is just one face in that crowd and not even a particularly profound one when viewed next to the works of Plato or Descartes.

    I'd genuinely encourage anyone to think outside that particular box at any opportunity rather than ascribe superhuman powers of wisdom and foresight to a group of people who were nothing more or less than ourselves.
  15. K.

    K. Sober

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    Very much this.
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  16. Federal Farmer

    Federal Farmer Corn of Coblin

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    I'm not ascribing super human powers to anything.
  17. spot261

    spot261 George "The Animal" Steele tribute act

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    Maybe not, but I've noticed some very close parallels between the way devout Christians treat the Bible and how some people view the Constitution. There's a tendency to view them both as being above reproach and thus the final word on any given question.

    That which is in line with scripture is absolute and beyond question to such a Christian, which is one reason @Dayton3 is targeted so readily, yet pretty much the same infallibility is ascribed to an equally human document and people seem oblivious to the double standard.
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  18. Man Afraid of his Shoes

    Man Afraid of his Shoes كافر

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    What is a viable alternative to a Rule of Law?
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  19. spot261

    spot261 George "The Animal" Steele tribute act

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    Being much more open to reconsidering said rule of law and not acting as though it is written into the fabric of nature and thus immutable, especially when its' validity sits at odds with the observed outcomes.

    The Constitution has one massive positive attached to it IMHO, it is very much humanist and rational. Unfortunately the spirit of that seems to be missed in how it is latterly viewed insofar as such a mentality is supposed to be employed by open minds, minds which are willing to place reason before dogma.
  20. Dayton Kitchens

    Dayton Kitchens Banned

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    People have to believe in something.
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  21. spot261

    spot261 George "The Animal" Steele tribute act

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    Certainly it helps, but my point was that people will scoff at one belief system for being irrational whilst subscribing to something else equally irrational.
  22. Dayton Kitchens

    Dayton Kitchens Banned

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    Isn't "irrational" in the eye of the beholder?
  23. garamet

    garamet "The whole world is watching."

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    You could test that hypothesis by standing at the edge of a cliff, flapping your arms, and saying "Gravity is irrational. I believe I can fly." :shrug:
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  24. matthunter

    matthunter Antira

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    Listen to the mirror D. It does not lie.
  25. K.

    K. Sober

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    A lot of things are in the eye of the beholder, but rationality is very much not. Pretty much by definition.
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  26. Federal Farmer

    Federal Farmer Corn of Coblin

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  27. garamet

    garamet "The whole world is watching."

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    Exactly my point. Dayton thinks he can morph reality based on his perception. :shrug:
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  28. TheBrew

    TheBrew The Hand of Smod

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    Totally avoids the question.
  29. spot261

    spot261 George "The Animal" Steele tribute act

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    I think (might be wrong) is to imply it's difficult to tie concepts of right and wrong which have been part of human behaviour for as long as we have been around to a document which in the grand scheme of things has been around for the blink of an eye.
  30. spot261

    spot261 George "The Animal" Steele tribute act

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    You know I think we're finally starting to see eye to eye ;)

    What is "rational" to a devout Christian might look decidedly odd to an atheist and vica versa.

    What is "irrational" to an American might go without saying for a European.

    So on and so forth, hence my point. Any such document can and likely will appear irrational to someone from a different background, which is exactly why I suggest that reasoned discussion should always be seen as preferable to dogma of any kind.