On Sep 11 anniversary AOC compared the 9/11 terrorists to the 01/06 insurrectionists…

Discussion in 'The Red Room' started by Ancalagon, Sep 13, 2021.

  1. Ancalagon

    Ancalagon outta my way Administrator Formerly Important

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    Is nothing sacred to these far left extremists. HOW DARE THEY make these logical connections on such a sacred day!

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  2. steve2^4

    steve2^4 Aged Meat

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    Fooled me.
  3. Diacanu

    Diacanu Comicmike. Writer

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    That won't get you any traction, the Trump-Nazis threw Dubyah under the steamroller as a RINO awhile ago.

    You know you're down the fascist rabbit hole pretty fucking deep when a goddamned war criminal looks like a softy to you.
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  4. Ten Lubak

    Ten Lubak Salty Dog

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    I know I mean what's up with all those Che Guevara T-shirts, right?
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  5. Lanzman

    Lanzman Vast, Cool and Unsympathetic Formerly Important

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    No no, Che was a Hero of the Masses, not a murderous fuckhead. Just ask Amaris.
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  6. spot261

    spot261 I don't want the game to end

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    The two are not mutually exclusive.
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  7. 14thDoctor

    14thDoctor You know what time it is

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    I've never owned one, but it's kind of funny how much money his likeness has generated for capitalists over the years. I hope the CIA has them in their gift shop.
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  8. Diacanu

    Diacanu Comicmike. Writer

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    This.
  9. Amaris

    Amaris Candor Coated

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    This. Che did kill people during the revolution. He was also a national hero because of it.
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  10. Ten Lubak

    Ten Lubak Salty Dog

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    Kill or execute? :)
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  11. spot261

    spot261 I don't want the game to end

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    The FBI were behind the Charlie Don't Surf ones
  12. Federal Farmer

    Federal Farmer Anti-Federalist

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    for-the-motherland!-BAWDJA.jpg
  13. spot261

    spot261 I don't want the game to end

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    Revolutions tend to be violent, lawless affairs regardless of the flags being waved.
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  14. Federal Farmer

    Federal Farmer Anti-Federalist

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    And @Amaris tends to only excuse the worst behavior of man and is among the blame America first crowd.
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  15. Rimjob Bob

    Rimjob Bob They call me Hard Bob, and you know why?

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    Counterpoint: The man more responsible for America's two-decade dysfunction than most others, now wants a renewed war on terror -- against our own citizens.
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  16. steve2^4

    steve2^4 Aged Meat

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    That's a counterpoint?
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  17. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

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    There has been a concerted effort in the media to rewrite history and rehabilitate George W. Bush.

    The same thing will happen with Trump
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  18. Bickendan

    Bickendan Custom Title Administrator Faceless Mook Writer

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    Agreed - but is it because Bush looks good in comparison to Trump?

    Maybe within the right wing of the media, perhaps, but it seems like Someone Worse would have be in place for a comparison to be made.
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  19. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

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    In an honest accounting, I don't think he does. It's all part of portraying Trump as a unique aberration, when the reality is that the Republican party in it's totality is a very dangerous organisation.
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  20. spot261

    spot261 I don't want the game to end

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    Yet you yourself glorify a bloody and violent revolution against the British whilst villifying the Confederacy.

    Likewise we cannot mention Oliver Cromwell without Brits puffing out their chests in pride.

    We tend to revile those "heroes" who oppose us as being murderers, yet overlook the same tendencies in those whose causes we support or have come to accept as correct by virtue of being raised in the world they created.
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  21. Diacanu

    Diacanu Comicmike. Writer

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    Yep, Mitch MConnell is every bit as vile as Trump, but he doesn't get the press, cuz he's a sneaky little Machiavellian, not a brazen wrestling heel like Trump.
    And McConnell's been around since Reagan.
    And Dick (torture-monster) Cheny's been around since Nixon.
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  22. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    Trump is the worst US president by far. And yes, leading an attempt to overthrow the US government because he lost an election is a unique aberration here, and pretty much the entirety of how history is going to judge him.

    Even if it happens again in the future there is before Trump and after Trump.
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  23. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    Yeah, you might want to study up on history a bit more before you try to equate the American Revolution with the American Civil War. And I'm pretty sure this is not the first time you've done so. It's a uniquely myopic take.

    I agree with your stance in the last paragraph, but the morality of fighting a revolution because you have no say in your own government versus trying one because you want to continue to enslave humans the rest of your country is moving toward freeing is pretty substantial.
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  24. spot261

    spot261 I don't want the game to end

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    I think the point Rick is making is that whilst Trump is an aberration he is an aberration made possible by a backdrop of enabling.

    Trump could not have got to that position had there not been a political party, infrastructure and the grass roots sentiment in place to give him a platform.
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  25. spot261

    spot261 I don't want the game to end

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    In both cases there was a violent uprising based on a genuine belief in a cause.

    I don't personally equate those causes, but they were held just as passionately and considered just as, ahem, just by their respective proponents.

    That's pretty much the extent of my point here really, that every cause is seen as just by those fighting for it and likely seen as moral and human atrocity by those opposing them.

    If that were not true then no-one involved would get up in the morning and go kill each other over it.

    Perspective.
  26. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    Fair enough. Again, one of those 'more than one things are true' moments. Trump IS an aberration, historically speaking, in US politics.

    But the GOP has also lost its mind.

    I blame evangelicalism - the constant refrain that you can choose your own reality and ignore the people that actually know things is what led to the present state of the Republican party.

    As the power of the religious right has grown, clearly this has gotten worse, and there's a huge overlap between Qanon and conspiracy theorists and the religious in the GOP.

    Even as their pastors die of covid while railing against the vaccine, as yet another did last night.
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  27. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    Again we are going to get into a 'detail' vs 'high level analysis.' Yes, the vast majority of causes rely on the belief that it is a just cause to engage in violence. Even then, though, there are huge swathes of history that isn't the case. Often times belief comes after political and strategic calculation. And consensus is manufactured, as Chomsky would say.

    The manuevering for cassus belli has been a political art since the first governmental organizations.

    But at the end of the day, it does impact the battlefield on what those beliefs are and who is willing to commit to fighting for them, even if you are dealing with conscription or levies for the mass of your fighting force.

    These two cases are very telling in that regard.

    The American Revolution gained wide international support, and quite frankly would have been impossible without French, and to a lesser extent Spanish and Dutch assistance.

    The stain of slavery was so abhorrent it was impossible for them to rally political support to assist the Confederates. Even though many of the wealthy in the UK and France depended on American cotton for their profits and even though it was absolutely in their best interest to break up the US geopolitically and ensure the cheap flow of cotton for their economies. The term 'King Cotton' was the Confederate politicians assurance that Europe would be forced to help them because of their reliance on it. That was a hugely important miscalculation.

    Hell, the Russian Tsar actually committed naval assets to help the US, because he himself was a reformer and wanted to see slavery end in the US. A Russian flotilla cruised the west coast looking for Confederate blockade runners.

    This is what is interesting to me - the details. Generalities are only so useful, there are always exceptions, and the why of those exceptions is required to try to understand history - and through that, human nature.

    At least, that's my pov. I guess your mileage can vary. :D
  28. spot261

    spot261 I don't want the game to end

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    My mileage does vary to a point insofar as objective analysis and subjective motivations don't necessarily tally.

    Take, for instance, Trump supporters.

    You could doubtless factually dismiss any genuine claim they have to grievances because those grievances exist only as perceptions.

    Nonetheless as humans we are programmed by evolution to respond emotionally to our perceptions because for millions of years it has been preferable to compete for an edge rather than seek equity or objective fairness.

    They are doing exactly that, responding to a perception rather than an objective analysis.

    Purely focusing, therefore, on such an objective analysis is never going to explain their behaviour, not unless you are willing to extend that objectivity beyond history and sociology into biology.

    You, I would venture, find yourself frustrated by the disparity between what reasonably could or should be rational discourse and what actually presents on our newsscreens and twitter feeds.

    I get frustrated too, I simply place it in a different conceptual framework on which reason is not the primary driver of group behaviours.

    This is why there is so often an antipathy towards intellectualism amongst such groups, because the intellectual who questions the logic of their rage cannot be debated with when there is no logic.

    Likewise for their leaders who recognise their power base rests on the emotional responses of the mob such questioning is a direct threat.
  29. Diacanu

    Diacanu Comicmike. Writer

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    Demiurge- Trump is a piece of shit!!! *Hits Spot's sword hard enough to make sparks fly*

    Spot- I agree completely!!! *More clanging with sparks*

    Demiurge- Good!! Let's be friends!!! *More clanging with sparks*

    Spot- Okay!!! *Tries to take Demiurge's head off, misses, more spark clanging*

    Me- :corn:
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  30. spot261

    spot261 I don't want the game to end

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    I see no issue here.

    @Demiurge and I like to debate, we both have obliquely complementary educational backgrounds and (I think) enjoy a lively exchange of ideas.

    It's actually refreshing to be able to do that without it being reduced to partisan name calling.
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