Roe v. Wade

Discussion in 'The Red Room' started by We Are Borg, May 17, 2021.

  1. Tuckerfan

    Tuckerfan BMF Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2007
    Messages:
    46,579
    Location:
    Can't tell you, 'cause I'm undercover!
    Ratings:
    +84,948


    :corn:
    • popcorn popcorn x 4
  2. Order2Chaos

    Order2Chaos Ultimate... Immortal Administrator

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2004
    Messages:
    23,061
    Location:
    here there be dragons
    Ratings:
    +15,802
    Humans don't have the right to parasitize others for nine months.
    • Winner Winner x 4
    • Agree Agree x 2
  3. Bickendan

    Bickendan Custom Title Administrator Faceless Mook Writer

    Joined:
    May 7, 2010
    Messages:
    20,487
    Ratings:
    +21,352
    "Well then she should have kept her legs closed! :dendroica:"

    :brood:
    • Agree Agree x 5
  4. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

    Joined:
    May 5, 2004
    Messages:
    20,222
    Ratings:
    +14,630
    And then they write legislation that has no exclusion for rape...
    • Agree Agree x 7
  5. Raoul the Red Shirt

    Raoul the Red Shirt Professional bullseye

    Joined:
    May 3, 2004
    Messages:
    11,557
    Ratings:
    +6,612
    Do you think that anti-abortion people believe the same thing that the body has ways of shutting down pregnancy if it's "legitimate rape" like that one politician said? Do you think he himself believed it? Or was it just a way of dodging the monstrosity of the position that either they believe so much in the fetus' right to exist that a woman or girl should have to live for at least nine months with a reminder of her rapist growing inside her, or they realize that if you allow for that sort of abortion it calls into question the whole anti-abortion structure?
    • popcorn popcorn x 3
    • Agree Agree x 2
  6. Diacanu

    Diacanu Comicmike. Writer

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2004
    Messages:
    90,001
    Ratings:
    +62,095
    The "whole anti-abortion structure" is that the "cultural right" wanted vengeance for the fall of segregation, so they needed a new wedge issue, and they needed it fast.
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  7. steve2^4

    steve2^4 Aged Meat

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2004
    Messages:
    13,577
    Location:
    Dead and Loving It
    Ratings:
    +10,746
    They have guns. greedy bastards.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. Diacanu

    Diacanu Comicmike. Writer

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2004
    Messages:
    90,001
    Ratings:
    +62,095
    Face it, "the gun issue" is a wink-wink white supremacy thing too.
    They ain't scared of Kyle Rittenhouse in the suburbs and trailer parks.
    • Agree Agree x 3
  9. Raoul the Red Shirt

    Raoul the Red Shirt Professional bullseye

    Joined:
    May 3, 2004
    Messages:
    11,557
    Ratings:
    +6,612
    Also the usual suspects who decry government overreach are typically silent when there are cases where a person of color like Philando Castile gets shot while legally having a gun. (I find it at least somewhat disturbing that auto-correct knows that his name is "Philando Castile" rather than Philandro.)
    • Agree Agree x 3
  10. Paladin

    Paladin Overjoyed Man of Liberty

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2004
    Messages:
    48,521
    Location:
    Spacetime
    Ratings:
    +51,386
    1. Humans aren't parasites.
    2. The human in question was allowed, in the vast majority of cases, to take residence by the host.
    3. Can one decide to remove one's "parasite" at 6 months of gestation? 7? 8?
    • Facepalm Facepalm x 2
  11. Diacanu

    Diacanu Comicmike. Writer

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2004
    Messages:
    90,001
    Ratings:
    +62,095
    Not according to Sokar, or Storm, or anyone who ever repped them, or Ronald Reagan, or anyone who voted for him.
    • Winner Winner x 1
  12. Paladin

    Paladin Overjoyed Man of Liberty

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2004
    Messages:
    48,521
    Location:
    Spacetime
    Ratings:
    +51,386
    I mean (as I believe O2C did) in the literal, biological sense. In the metaphorical sense, sure, lots of people are parasites.
    • Facepalm Facepalm x 2
    • teh baba teh baba x 1
  13. Diacanu

    Diacanu Comicmike. Writer

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2004
    Messages:
    90,001
    Ratings:
    +62,095
    Okay, is a fetus a symbiote?
    What does the fetus give back?
    Is it sweeping the floors, and organizing recyclables?
    Does it make fluoride to make mama's teeth sparkly?
  14. Order2Chaos

    Order2Chaos Ultimate... Immortal Administrator

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2004
    Messages:
    23,061
    Location:
    here there be dragons
    Ratings:
    +15,802
    1. Parasite is as parasite does.
    2. Consent can be withdrawn at any time.
    3. Yes, yes, and yes. Ideally, they only wouldn't be allowed to kill it in the process, if the risk to the pregnant person is the same in kind and lower in magnitude from the procedure. Different kind, greater magnitude? At their option.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  15. Paladin

    Paladin Overjoyed Man of Liberty

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2004
    Messages:
    48,521
    Location:
    Spacetime
    Ratings:
    +51,386
    Parasites are usually uninvited.
    So, a pilot could withdraw consent for a passenger to be in his airplane even in the air?
    Sorry, but absolutely monstrous.
    Why not? It's only a parasite.
    Why does the fetus get any protection at all from you in this case? Is the fetus some fractional value of a person?
    • Facepalm Facepalm x 2
    • Dumb Dumb x 1
  16. Jenee

    Jenee Ind. Jenee of Winterfell

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2008
    Messages:
    19,752
    Location:
    Touring the Galaxy
    Ratings:
    +11,732
    What would you say it is if a woman is raped and becomes pregnant as a result and then is forced to carry the pregnancy to term? I’d call that mandatory pregnancy.
    • Agree Agree x 2
  17. Paladin

    Paladin Overjoyed Man of Liberty

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2004
    Messages:
    48,521
    Location:
    Spacetime
    Ratings:
    +51,386
    She isn't forced to, even under the new Texas law. She can still get an abortion up until around six weeks.
    • Facepalm Facepalm x 4
  18. Diacanu

    Diacanu Comicmike. Writer

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2004
    Messages:
    90,001
    Ratings:
    +62,095
    So you're just going to repeat the wrong things like a robot to tire the other person out.
    I'm not used to this terrible argument style from you.
    This is usually a Dayton or FF kind of thing.
    :(
    • Agree Agree x 1
  19. Jenee

    Jenee Ind. Jenee of Winterfell

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2008
    Messages:
    19,752
    Location:
    Touring the Galaxy
    Ratings:
    +11,732
    At 6 weeks, most women don’t even know they’re pregnant AND, I can tell you from experience, a six week pregnancy barely shows up on a pregnancy test.

    So, you fail. Again.
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Winner Winner x 2
  20. Diacanu

    Diacanu Comicmike. Writer

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2004
    Messages:
    90,001
    Ratings:
    +62,095
    (As Paladin)
    She isn't forced to, even under the new Texas law. She can still get an abortion up until around six weeks.
    She isn't forced to, even under the new Texas law. She can still get an abortion up until around six weeks.
    She isn't forced to, even under the new Texas law. She can still get an abortion up until around six weeks.
    :borg:
  21. Paladin

    Paladin Overjoyed Man of Liberty

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2004
    Messages:
    48,521
    Location:
    Spacetime
    Ratings:
    +51,386
    If there was a rape, why wait six weeks to address a possible pregnancy?
    • Facepalm Facepalm x 3
  22. Diacanu

    Diacanu Comicmike. Writer

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2004
    Messages:
    90,001
    Ratings:
    +62,095
    Oh, I dunno, the shrieking mob in front of the clinic is scary?
    Especially to someone with trauma already?

    *Paladin's hard drive light clicks like crazy*
    :borg:

    *My post gets a "not responding" warning, and the screen goes white*
    • Agree Agree x 2
  23. Paladin

    Paladin Overjoyed Man of Liberty

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2004
    Messages:
    48,521
    Location:
    Spacetime
    Ratings:
    +51,386
    Will the mob be gone after six weeks?
    • Facepalm Facepalm x 1
  24. Diacanu

    Diacanu Comicmike. Writer

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2004
    Messages:
    90,001
    Ratings:
    +62,095
    abortion argument simplified.jpg
    • Funny Funny x 3
  25. Diacanu

    Diacanu Comicmike. Writer

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2004
    Messages:
    90,001
    Ratings:
    +62,095
    Lucy_Blanket 2.jpg
    • Funny Funny x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  26. Order2Chaos

    Order2Chaos Ultimate... Immortal Administrator

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2004
    Messages:
    23,061
    Location:
    here there be dragons
    Ratings:
    +15,802
    There's an explicit contract that the passenger(s) will not be a threat to the plane in exchange for carriage. If the contract is broken, sure, if they pose a threat to the rest of the plane, though it's hard to imagine a scenario where doing so wouldn't put the rest of the plane in serious jeopardy. Maybe a small plane, like a little two-seater biplane.

    Stowaways on ships have been tossed overboard since time immemorial, particularly if their presence threatens the ship or the crew.

    And I refuse to believe that you can make a contract, even an implicit one, with a person that doesn't exist at the time. And they don't: the homunculus hypothesis is quite clearly wrong.

    I could be convinced that there's an implicit agreement to carry if one waits sufficiently long; indeed only 1% of abortions in the US are performed after 20 weeks of pregnancy (largely due to findings of defects, pre-eclampsia, etc.), so it's not exactly a pressing problem. But sure as fuck not at six weeks. And if someone doesn't realize they're pregnant, for instance, that should toll the clock.

    To be clear, I don't currently think that; I'm just saying that I'm persuadable on that point with sufficiently good arguments.
    No, it's acting as a parasite. It might be a human. Doesn't much matter. We treat people (in the moment, not in the legal system) according to their actions. The action is parasitic and is a constant threat to one's mental, physical, and financial health until it's born.
    The zygote/embryo/fetus could be, arguendo, a whole and complete person from conception, or it might not be until it draws its first breath. It still doesn't have the right to parasitize and threaten another person. If that means its death, so be it. But if there's no reason -- no lower risk -- for the pregnant person to kill it in the removal process, we should err on the side of personhood and try to save its life, same as you might call the police to arrest someone trespassing but not threatening anyone instead of shooting them.
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2021
  27. Raoul the Red Shirt

    Raoul the Red Shirt Professional bullseye

    Joined:
    May 3, 2004
    Messages:
    11,557
    Ratings:
    +6,612
    A. The woman may be in trauma/denial about the fact of the rape happening in the first place and might not be operating on optimal logical cylinders, or have optimal ability logistically to deal with the rape. It might be easy for us in the peanut gallery to think "why didn't she get drugs immediately after the rape to prevent conception/cause an early abortion or take other measures"? The answer is: in real life, it's often not going to be that simple for a RAPE SURVIVOR. No doubt some women and girls are going to be wrestling with various things, including the notion that they should not hold it against the fetus that it is the product of rape.

    B. Even if the rape survivor is the equivalent of T'Pol, the soonest that she would know conclusively that she was pregnant is about the four weeks after conception, after a missed period and a test to confirm it. As hopefully you can imagine, women can have missed or irregular periods for various reasons, including stress. I wonder if rape might cause someone to experience stress...? Anyway, the notion that such a woman would rigorously test and get results and be able to act within the gap between four weeks and six weeks is patently unfair.

    C. Many of the same folks fighting abortion are also making the drugs to promote an early abortion hard to come by. I believe I've seen the phrase "chemical warfare against the unborn."
    • Agree Agree x 7
  28. Diacanu

    Diacanu Comicmike. Writer

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2004
    Messages:
    90,001
    Ratings:
    +62,095
    Paladin's position is going to basically be "if she's not T'Pol, to Hell with her :borg:".
    He won't word it that way, but that'll be the thrust of it.
  29. Tererun

    Tererun Troll princess and Magical Girl

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2014
    Messages:
    28,018
    Location:
    Beyond the Silver Rainbow
    Ratings:
    +17,670
    Let us fully get the picture, as it helps your point. They guy who said that was not just a politician. He was a republican who was a gynocologist. He was comparing women to ducks. There is no possible way this guy was not well aware women do not just shut down their reproductive system because of a rape.

    So, the guy in question actually answers your question in that he had enough education to know his idea of legitimate rape was completely false and it was most certainly a lie for the less educated.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  30. Tererun

    Tererun Troll princess and Magical Girl

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2014
    Messages:
    28,018
    Location:
    Beyond the Silver Rainbow
    Ratings:
    +17,670
    Not to totally defend that point, but if I were raped I think 6 weeks is a long time for me to be wishy washy about things given the severity of the incident. Now I do not want to block a rape victim at any time of the pregnancy from saying no, but how many of them are really sitting around at that point wondering if they would keep the child? It is sort of a distractive argument which if you did make an exception for it would cause problems with some women seeing their access to an abortion being accusing someone of rape. My point is we should not be encouraging accusations of rape to get abortions, and that means we should not even be involved in the process at all.

    It just does not really make me thinik there are a lot of women who are raped who are going to have to carry because you are just going to plan B the friggen thing ASAP.