So, Can the US Still Hold A Fair Election?

Discussion in 'The Red Room' started by K., Aug 15, 2020.

  1. K.

    K. Sober

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    Just how bad does this feel on the ground?

    I read the stories, but I have no real world baseline experience with voting in the US to relate them to. You've long had issues with black voter suppression and gerrymandering. Then in 2016, you had fake news campaigns online targeting and tipping swing states, and have greatly reduced your internet security over the last four years. Now you have kidnappings and police brutality intimidating voters, limited polling stations, apparently no mechanisms to make voting in person safe and efficient during the pandemic, and a dismantled postal service.

    All of that is clearly bad. But how bad is it? Do you still think there is a chance for this election to produce something reasonably close to a democratic mandate? Or has it already become pointless? And if so, what happens next?
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  2. Jenee

    Jenee Ind. Jenee of Winterfell

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    I am so pessimistic not just about this election, but the future of the US. Even if Biden is elected and trump is successfully removed from office, continuing in the same fashion as we have in the last 40 years is not sustainable. And we cannot seem to elect officials who have any concern about fixing it.
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  3. We Are Borg vs. USS Crazy Horse

    We Are Borg vs. USS Crazy Horse Probably a Dual

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    I have a feeling the 2020 election is going to make the fighting over the 2000 results look like a kindergarten brawl.
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  4. Jenee

    Jenee Ind. Jenee of Winterfell

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  5. Bailey

    Bailey It's always Christmas Eve Super Moderator

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    Based on shit like this:



    The 2020 US presidential election is looking like it's no more trustworthy than many failed democracies.
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  6. Quest

    Quest Let Freedom Ring! Staff Member Administrator

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    I think people are making too much of this. There are irregularities and accusations of fraud with every election cycle. It will probably be more intense this time, but eventually there will be a result which is widely accepted and reflects the will of the people. A sizable minority will never believe that Trump lost fair and square, and that could get pretty ugly, but in the end they won’t be successful in overturning the election.
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  7. Diacanu

    Diacanu Comicmike. Writer

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    I hope you're right.
    But am bracing for the worst.
    Blind hope is a poison.
    I won't drink it again.
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  8. steve2^4

    steve2^4 Aged Meat

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    I upped my game donating to Biden's campaign.

    I encourage everyone to.

    No. American politics are corrupt. It's about money.
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  9. Tuckerfan

    Tuckerfan BMF Staff Member Moderator

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    How many years did it take for people to stop screaming that Bush stole the 2000 election? That election turned on a handful of votes in one state. We're now facing a situation where every state's election results will be as fucked up as Florida's that year. Republicans spent 8 years claiming Obama wasn't an American if Biden wins narrowly, I cannot imagine the Republicans just accepting it ever. If Trump narrowly wins, I can easily see every city in America erupting into protests.
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  10. Asyncritus

    Asyncritus Expert on everything

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    I sure hope you're right. But the only way for that to happen is for there to be a very clear winner. If it's a "squeaker" like 2000, I am not at all convinced the losing side will ever come to accept the results.

    To be perfectly honest, if Trump wins, I will be among those who suspect the results are not fair and honest. It will take some pretty strong evidence to convince me.

    This is the very first time in my entire lifetime that I have had such doubts about an American election. Even the corrupt Democratic machine in 1960 or the Russian interference in 2016 did not cause me the doubts I have right now. I hope Biden wins in a landslide, because that is the only hope of there every being a real mandate for the next government.
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  11. garamet

    garamet "The whole world is watching."

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    This is making the rounds on FB. Putting it here so it won't get lost in the election thread:

    Good advice for people who feel unsafe about voting in person but now fear the USPS will be unable to deliver a “mail-in” ballot in a timely fashion thanks to SCROTUS' sabotage.

    There is a way around it:
    1. Request a mail-in ballot.
    2. Do not mail it.
    3. Google your supervisor of elections to see where you can drop off your mail-in ballot. Its usually NOT THE POLLING PLACE. All states allow this!

    Here is what you're accomplishing by doing this:
    1. Your ballot gets in on time no matter what happens to the USPS.
    2. You don't have to worry about standing in long lines and risking infection. You're just stopping by to drop it off.
    3. You still voted! Hooray!
    Also, when you drop it off, find out how to track it online to make sure it is verified. California, Oregon, Washington, and Colorado have systems that can track your ballot just like tracking a package from Amazon.
    All CA vote centers (which are open for weeks to a month before election day) have ballot drop-off boxes too! Many government buildings have them as well, so there's no need to wait until election day when it's crowded to drop them off. The list of drop-off sites is always posted on each county's voter info website.
    ***This is very important and I would appreciate everyone who sees this to copy it on their page.
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  12. garamet

    garamet "The whole world is watching."

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    To respond to the OP: Unless Der Drumpfenfuhrer manages to pull the plug on California entirely, I'm not seeing any real danger to our all-mail voting. Wish every state could be as fortunate. :(
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  13. TheBurgerKing

    TheBurgerKing The Monarch of Flavor

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    I don't think so. Because of the chinese virus a lot of voters will be voting by mail. I haven't seen any polling data, but I suspect public confidence in the vote by mail system is low. You have Trump fucking with the mail, the general incompetence and laziness of postal workers, and the dumbassery of most people about getting things out at the last possible minute. And that's just speaking of the process in getting the ballots to the counters. We saw shit in the primaries like 20+% of absentee ballots in new york getting tossed for trivial shit. We've had vote counts take weeks to finish. We will not have a definitive answer on election night, and suspect we won't until mid December. And then even if it's a landslide for either candidate we will hear claims of vote rigging. Enough so to incite violence. Fuck, riots are still going on in places like portland. What do you think will happen with those temper tantrums if they end up truly not getting their way and we get another 4 years of Trump?
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  14. Asyncritus

    Asyncritus Expert on everything

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    Thank you. I'll get right on it, and find out where the nearest drop-off site is here in France.






    ;)
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  15. Jenee

    Jenee Ind. Jenee of Winterfell

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    Or on a Navy ship in the Indian Ocean.

    Or even on a US military base.
  16. Asyncritus

    Asyncritus Expert on everything

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    Great. Thanks.

    I'll have to ask directions to the Indian Ocean, since I'm not sure what part of France that's in.

    As for US military bases, I'm about 50 years too late for that, thanks to old Chuck (de Gaulle, that is)...
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  17. matthunter

    matthunter Ice Bear

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    The military can mail their ballots directly to the White House via ICBM or cruise missile, as convenient.
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  18. Jenee

    Jenee Ind. Jenee of Winterfell

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    The point was, the military also needs to mail their ballots. Not just ex-pats. As they can no more just drive over to the supervisor of elections and drop it off than you can.
  19. Fisherman's Worf

    Fisherman's Worf I am the Seaman, I am the Walrus, Qu-Qu-Qapla'!

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    Your first mistake was assuming we are still a democracy.
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  20. Tuckerfan

    Tuckerfan BMF Staff Member Moderator

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  21. Tuckerfan

    Tuckerfan BMF Staff Member Moderator

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    E1454794-F6B3-4366-9709-9431CED329D7.jpeg ECA7AA14-941F-4753-BC57-8F5019019388.jpeg
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  22. Rimjob Bob

    Rimjob Bob Wordforge's Least Competent Wokelord

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    If the election is a clusterfuck, then the choice of president gets punted to the House, in which case Trump wins. He essentially wins by default.
  23. Tuckerfan

    Tuckerfan BMF Staff Member Moderator

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    Why does a Democratic-controlled House vote for Trump?
  24. Rimjob Bob

    Rimjob Bob Wordforge's Least Competent Wokelord

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    In that event, individual Reps don't vote. Each state's delegation votes as a block, meaning there are fifty total votes. The majority of state delegations have Republican majorities.
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  25. Tuckerfan

    Tuckerfan BMF Staff Member Moderator

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    They will, most likely, be voting in a closed session and if the vote for a particular block is divided then it doesn't count.
    So while it isn't impossible that Trump would get it, I wouldn't rule out the chance that it goes to Biden.
  26. tafkats

    tafkats That'll put marzipan in your pie plate, bingo! Moderator

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    Under the scenario where only unanimous delegations can cast a vote -- and it looks like the Democratic majority would be able to force that to be the rule, since the procedure is determined by the House and isn't laid out in the Constitution -- if it takes a majority of delegations to elect a president, 17 states' delegations would have to do something other than what their partisan makeup indicates. Right now each party has nine unanimous House delegations.

    All-Democratic (9):
    Connecticut
    Delaware
    Hawaii
    Maine
    Massachusetts
    New Hampshire
    New Mexico
    Rhode Island
    Vermont

    All-Republican (9):
    Alaska
    Arkansas
    Idaho
    Montana
    Nebraska
    North Dakota
    South Dakota
    West Virginia
    Wyoming

    Maybe some Republicans would grow a backbone when allowed to vote in secret, but I'm not optimistic that it would be that many.

    I assume if the House deadlocks and can't come to a resolution by January 20, the vice president, who would have been chosen by the Senate, becomes president. Which, in the event of a 50/50 split, could involve Mike Pence casting the tie-breaking vote to make himself president (although it's ambiguous whether that would be allowed).

    In reality, this scenario would likely not come about because of disputed results -- if there are disputes, they will probably end up litigated and decided by the Supreme Court as in 2000, rather than going to a contingent election.

    There are some plausible 269-269 tie scenarios. FiveThirtyEight has probably gamed out the odds of that happening.
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  27. K.

    K. Sober

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    Aren't those rules in place for situations in which the electoral college convenes and cannot choose a President? What happens when the composition of the college itself is challenged?
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2020
  28. Nova

    Nova livin on the edge of the ledge Writer

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    if by fair you mean relatively, in the context of 21st century elections, yes - we did so in 2018.
    But CAN is not WILL.
    Too many Americans haven't come to grips with what a sociopathic would-be Putin will do to retain his office.
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  29. Nova

    Nova livin on the edge of the ledge Writer

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    also, too late to start a separate thread tonight but I'ma tell you what we're NOT going to have: anything even mildly resembling an accurate census.
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  30. Order2Chaos

    Order2Chaos Ultimate... Immortal Administrator

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    538 puts it at 1 in 100 as of last night. Also, presumably new rules would need to be passed if no President is elected by the start of the new Congress. Requiring unanimity among a state delegation could easily backfire, especially if no President is elected by that point.