So Turkey just voted out their democracy

Discussion in 'The Red Room' started by K., Apr 16, 2017.

  1. K.

    K. Sober

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    And I sit here thinking: historically, this shit never lasts, but when did a people ever get rid of it and rebuild liberty without going through a major catastrophe first? Is there a way to dismantle tyranny without blowing the whole place up?
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  2. Diacanu

    Diacanu Comicmike. Writer

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    Um, didn't Tunisia oust their dictator with lots of protests instead of a war?
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  3. Aurora

    Aurora VincerĂ²!

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  4. K.

    K. Sober

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    I am trying to come up with examples like this. So far, they fall into two categories: satellite dictatorships that collapse peacefully after a more central dictatorship is blown up violently, and nations moving only partially in the direction of more liberty, never actually removing the more fundamental totalitarianism even as they do remove the worst totalitarian rulers. I'll have to have a closer look at Tunisia.
  5. Tuckerfan

    Tuckerfan BMF Staff Member Moderator

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    Ukraine is an example. As is the Soviet Union. The collapse of Communism was rather bloodless when compared to many revolutions. For a guidebook on how one could have a "bloodless" revolution, The Albert Einstein Institute has a bunch of free books on the subject. Some of the works were supposedly used by the folks in Ukraine.
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  6. K.

    K. Sober

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    Thanks, I'll have a look at that, but have you seen Ukraine lately?
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  7. Tuckerfan

    Tuckerfan BMF Staff Member Moderator

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    It's a paradise compared to Tajikistan.
  8. Rimjob Bob

    Rimjob Bob Wordforge's Least Competent Wokelord

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    Sad day for Turkey and Europe.
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  9. Ancalagon

    Ancalagon outta my way Administrator Formerly Important

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    Yep. If you were tell Mustafa Kemal his Republic would last 95 years, do you think he'd be pleased or disappointed with its longevity?
  10. Nova

    Nova livin on the edge of the ledge Writer

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    if there's anything recent history is really teaching us is that for all our veneer of civilization that progresses towards more liberty, that veneer is a very thin covering for a whole lot of regressive, if not primitive, instincts.
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  11. Shirogayne

    Shirogayne 1/06 Was An Inside Job Formerly Important

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    Beat me to it.

    Sad. :(
  12. Dinner

    Dinner 2012 & 2014 Master Prognosticator

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    There have been lots of democracies which slipped into dictatorship and letter went back. Most of Latin America and a good chunk of Africa to be just a few.
  13. Bickendan

    Bickendan Custom Title Administrator Faceless Mook Writer

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    How many of them had CIA involvement on the dictatorial takeover?
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  14. Minsc&Boo

    Minsc&Boo Fresh Meat

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    Should I sing a byron song?
  15. Amaris

    Amaris Guest

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    That's what we get for not meeting our contacts on the road to Dushanbe.
  16. Ebeneezer Goode

    Ebeneezer Goode Gobshite

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    Not given our penchant for scaling out societies. My description of humanity as over-evolved apes with under-developed minds is less me acting out all Q, and more recognition that we use our intelligence to serve a basic hominid instruction set and rationalise it later.

    Sure, we can wrestle and beat that instruction set individually, but as a group it generally wins out. And the larger the group, the more powerful a force it becomes both in terms of internal decision making and exerting itself externally.

    So yes, some Alpha's come along, impose their order up until some other Alpha's are able to drum up enough support to challenge the current ones ideology, and a fight begins for supremacy.

    The greater the membership, the greater the catastrophe.

    Rinse and repeat until either we can use technology to rewrite ourselves, or an asteroid hits the planetary reset button.

    Time was I thought we could figure out we need smaller states with greater connectively and cross-reliance, which would foster greater understanding and reduce friction internally and externally, but I'm increasingly convinced we have a desire to scale hardwired into us - where we exchange longer durations of stability for greater upheaval when that stability decays.
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  17. Aurora

    Aurora VincerĂ²!

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    Well Turkey can be traced back to the Roman Empire, later Byzantinium, Seljuq, then the Ottoman Empire. Meaning there's a direct line from 133 BC until 1922 when modern Turkey was founded.

    So guess. This was an empire for over 800 years and/or a major part of an empire for over 2000 years. 95 years is nothing compared to Turkish history.
  18. Paladin

    Paladin Overjoyed Man of Liberty

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    I don't think history has a direction. Anyone who think it inevitably tends to any ideal--libertopia, communism, or anything in-between--is deluding themselves. It goes where we point it, willfully or otherwise.

    Freedom is messy. You have uncertainty, because your destiny is in your hands. You have to be willing to defend others' right to hold and express beliefs you find abhorrent. You have to tolerate others enjoying their own freedom, often in ways which you do not approve. You have to put aside envy, and not resent your neighbor for having things you don't. You have to be willing to live and let live. You have to be content not to settle old scores, and to see people as unique individuals, not members of a clan or tribe. You have to respect the freedom of others to have different gods or no gods. You have to believe that government is a tool that lets us all live our own autonomous lives, not an instrument to force your beliefs on others.

    Many people can't or won't do this. It's not genetic, it's cultural. They have no tradition of liberty, and the liberty of those different from them is a scary proposition. They're comfortable living in a cage, because their keeper keeps those more distressing aspects of freedom down.

    I don't believe any state so organized will last, in our current world context. It has nothing to offer, nothing to trade. It drives away its brilliant and innovative, and it can't attract them from elsewhere. Absolute power in its leaders will lead to stagnation. Investment and tourism will slow, and connectivity with the outside world will decline.

    Perhaps Turkey will one day turn around. Perhaps not. But for now, the Turkish people have pointed themselves toward a dismal future.
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  19. mburtonk

    mburtonk mburtonkulous

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  20. Dr. Krieg

    Dr. Krieg Noli Me Tangere. Administrator Overlord

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    It's better than it was under Kremlin puppet Yanukovych, and his kleptomaniac friends. Things would be improving more quickly, were it not for a hostile Russian invasion. :shrug:
  21. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

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    Trump apparently thinks that it's a good thing, and called Erdogan with congratulations...
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  22. Order2Chaos

    Order2Chaos Ultimate... Immortal Administrator

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    This doesn't bode well.
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  23. Ebeneezer Goode

    Ebeneezer Goode Gobshite

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    I'm hoping that's down to pragmatic realpolitik rather than genuine belief.

    The problem with Trump is that it could be either.
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  24. K.

    K. Sober

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    :facepalm:
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  25. Dayton Kitchens

    Dayton Kitchens Banned

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    Maybe Erdogan will ease up now that he has consolidated power.

    No, I don't believe it either but here's to hope.
  26. Ancalagon

    Ancalagon outta my way Administrator Formerly Important

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    Or neither.
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  27. Lanzman

    Lanzman Vast, Cool and Unsympathetic Formerly Important

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    Humans are herd animals with thumbs, nothing more.
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  28. Aurora

    Aurora VincerĂ²!

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    Trump is an idiot. Turkey will move away from the west gradually now. If anything he'll suck up to Putin. Will have to given how surrounded Turkey will be soon.

    Well, probably suits his destructive agenda.
  29. Minsc&Boo

    Minsc&Boo Fresh Meat

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    England democracy is dying let north ireland leave the uk.