Stop being so white! The woken....have spoken!

Discussion in 'The Red Room' started by oldfella1962, Feb 23, 2021.

  1. oldfella1962

    oldfella1962 high speed, low drag

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  2. Tererun

    Tererun Troll princess and Magical Girl

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    It is ok little white man. The big bad liberals are not going to hurt you. They are just going to let the other people have some time in the sun. So you are just not that special anymore just because you are white. But you could learn things and do things that would make you special, and you are always special to those who love you. It will be ok. You will get through this mr @oldfella1962 .

    Take deep breaths. control the tears. Stop the crying. You will be all right. Can someone get mr. OF a blanket or something? He seems to be scared and worried and we should all make sure he has a safe place where he can adjust to the changing world around him.

    is that better OF? Do you want some coco? are you ok there little guy? Who is our courageous man?!? you can do it, you can get through this.
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  3. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    Call me a whacky centrist, but no company should force their employees to take diversity training that is that tone deaf.

    Of course it should be removed if its verbiage is 'be less of who you are.'
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  4. MikeH92467

    MikeH92467 RadioNinja

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    This should be in the "Stupidity" thread. :dayton:
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  5. Amaris

    Amaris Guest

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    Coca Cola's one of those companies that tries to recreate its corporate image every few years with the latest in market researched enlightenment. They tend to miss the point by a country mile because they think diversity is some kind of quota you have to fill, rather than the natural result of a system that does not favor one group of people over another.

    Of course, no matter what they do, they're still assholes for draining other countries dry of their water and then selling it back to them (think Nestle, who does the same), and they deposit their waste products in local landfills and reservoirs to where it overburdens the local populations. The protests of the townspeople themselves are ignored. So they've got that shit going for them.

    I sincerely appreciate what they're going for here. One of the important parts of being an ally is not allowing white supremacy to take a foothold, and that means calling it out. Even something as innocuously sounding as "casual racism" is just more socially acceptable racism. It's still racism, and still needs called out. Their choice here, to make a chart was clearly done with the best of intentions. The school, a preparatory high school in New York, had this to say (they've pulled down the chart):

    Laudable goals. Critical thinking is a skill not often taught anymore, and that these people are not only clearly aware enough that they realize structural racism is a serious issue, but that they seek to actively address it rather than hide it behind euphemisms and other CYA coded language speaks well of them.

    Plus, this is the guide that comes with it:

    WhiteLevelsChart2021.jpg

    While it is much more boldly worded than I'm used to when it comes to administrative language, there are no lies detected.
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  6. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    'Whiteness' is a horrible term for white supremacy or hegemony. And it's destined to fail because of that - you won't ever achieve a goal of diversity if you are attempting to shit on a certain group. The same reasons that Dems had a much more problematic time in recent elections than expected, because the verbiage used was 'defund the police' when it really meant reallocate resources where they will be most effective - and everyone knew at least a few individuals that actually wanted to see the police functionally eliminated, so it gave it credence where there should have been none.
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  7. oldfella1962

    oldfella1962 high speed, low drag

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    quite a few companies/organizations are moving into this kind of training. My company hasn't yet but it wouldn't surprise me. Would it offend me? No more than most of the FUBAR mandatory CYA corporate shit they put out.
  8. oldfella1962

    oldfella1962 high speed, low drag

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    I'm not scared or worried, I just think it's ridiculous. I realize liberals can't hurt me, all they can do is disgust me and/or entertain me in a train-wrecky sorta way.
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  9. oldfella1962

    oldfella1962 high speed, low drag

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    "Of course, no matter what they do, they're still assholes for draining other countries dry of their water and then selling it back to them (think Nestle, who does the same), and they deposit their waste products in local landfills and reservoirs to where it overburdens the local populations. The protests of the townspeople themselves are ignored. So they've got that shit going for them." - Amaris

    :huh: okay I have to hear more about this. I'm not surprised, but I've never heard about this
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  10. Amaris

    Amaris Guest

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    Whiteness is an accurate term because of the root of its purpose. No one's saying white folks have to engage in some form of white guilt, that kind of thinking is unproductive. There's LOTS of unproductive white performativism towards indigenous and black folks, or as I like to call it "lots of cheap words to assuage guilt and leave white wallets full."

    On the other hand, defunding the police takes away the massive resources the police use to oppress black folks, the LGBTQ+ community, and the poor. Dismantling the prison industrial complex would be a great step. Hell, the whole carceral system needs an enormous overhaul. As it is right now, white people have to get over the idea that they don't control the narrative, because they do. At worst, the term hurts white people's feelings. On the other hand, white supremacy results in people of color dying, so it's not an equitable tradeoff in the slightest.

    As I said, there were no lies detected in that chart.
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  11. Amaris

    Amaris Guest

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    Yeah, Coke, Nestle, a bunch of other bottlers, go into developing countries (and right here in the US), buy out their aquifers (or in Nestle's case just steals them), and then sells the bottled water back to the people.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ing-san-felipe-ecatepec-chiapas-a7953026.html

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ycott-coca-cola-for-straining-water-resources

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/apr/23/pepsi-coke-bottled-water-consumer-reports

    https://www.theguardian.com/environ...up-us-creeks-to-sell-water-in-plastic-bottles

    https://www.mintpressnews.com/nestle-continues-stealing-worlds-water-during-drought/203544/

    https://www.theguardian.com/global/2018/oct/04/ontario-six-nations-nestle-running-water

    Nestle's CEO was also the guy who said claiming water was a human right was extreme. You know, as a sane person does.

    Side note, Nestle's also the child slavery company.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/12/01/cocoa-supreme-court-child-labor/
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  12. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    You won't engage with most white people by attacking the concept of 'whiteness.' I find this repeatedly from the left. Many of them are willing to drag people on the right over the coals for their unaware verbiage, and deservedly so, but then will indulge in themselves without the slightest hint of self-reflection.

    The identity of being white is not the same thing as supporting white hegemony.

    Imagine the furor if people attacked the concept of 'blackness.'

    If this is your take, you've already lost.

    And of course it's your own fault.
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  13. Amaris

    Amaris Guest

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    Being white means one enjoys privilege that indigenous and black folks don't get to enjoy. For most of the history of the US, white, wealthy men have enjoyed a position of extreme privilege, but even poor white men and women had more of an advantage than any black person, or indigenous person. Thanks to the cultural supremacy of "whiteness," being white carries with it advantages, one of them being that they can compare it with "blackness" as if it would be equivalent.
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  14. spot261

    spot261 I don't want the game to end

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    I don't imagine many would disagree with your starting premise, but the leap from "white supremacy" to "whiteness" is problematic on several counts.

    Even leaving aside the aforementioned linguistic implications there's also the simple fact of committing a fundamental error of categorisation.

    White supremacy =/= whiteness, they are two distinct concepts being conflated.

    I'm entirely comfortable with being white, with that being my identity. I see no causal link between my having that identity and the wider societal problems I'm more than happy to acknowledge and address.

    White privilege clearly does exist, it is ingrained to various extents in many of our societies (not necessarily all, mind you, it's important to avoid projecting our own problems onto others), however it is not intrinsic to being white, it is systemic in the world we have created and has roots deeper than skin colour.

    I'd argue those roots run so deep we cannot ever truly eliminate them, they are coded into our DNA from a time when even people from the next tribe along were at best rivals, at worst direct threats. The slightest suggestion of difference, of otherness, carries an implicit undercurrent of suspicion. We are enlightened enough to recognise that evolutionary heritage and act accordingly, but we will never remove it totally unless we re write our genetic structure.

    We didn't put it there, we can't remove it. Natural selection can be ugly and is certainly uncaring about morality, but it is undeniably the author of our source code.

    Blame cannot be attached by default to any given individual for sweeping issues outside of their control. People can only be held accountable for their own conduct, not that of others they resemble or share genetic material with.

    Racism at an individual level, whether intentional, incidental or casual can and should always be challenged but that should not take the form of an attack independent of any identified racist actions or attitudes. There can never be a perception that white = bad, because white just happens to be the arbitrarily identified spectrum of skin colours attached to those nationalities whose environments lent advantages when humanity started developing trade, technology, science and the myriad advances which gives one society the ability to outcompete another. It's not hard to imagine a reality where the opposite had happened and we would still face some version of the same issues.

    Change society, change behaviour, but do not assign blame by virtue of the simple unintentional fact of being born a certain colour.
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  15. Amaris

    Amaris Guest

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    In an environment where whiteness is given preferential treatment, being white can be equated with white supremacy if that advantage is not rejected. That there are hypotheticals on what would be were the situations reversed does not matter since that isn't what has occurred, and what has occurred is a systemic racism that, upon birth, confers privileges to white people that need acknowledged and addressed. To do otherwise is to accept that privilege, and to partake in oppressive acts against people who are not white. One of the first steps is to address that fact.

    What you're speaking of here, at least it seems, is the idea of white guilt, which I rejected earlier. Feeling guilty doesn't do anything, doesn't solve any issue, and only begs the question of forgiveness, for which there is nothing to forgive being born white.
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  16. Shirogayne

    Shirogayne 1/06 Was An Inside Job Formerly Important

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    Since I assume you're one of the few people coming in good faith on this:

    What magical phrase do you suggest we use to get white folks to listen? Because I can say that I've had my turn as a "Libertarian" on this board and sucked up to people I shouldn't have and none of that was enough to get heard on how racism affected me (yanno, once I discovered it actually did).

    I post on Tumblr where I see queer kids use "cishet" as an insult--often in petty ship wars, but occasionally on a topic of actual importance IRL--and buy into exclusionist politics from TERFs, and none of that has made me say that they don't deserve rights or that there aren't actual pressing issues that they absolutely should be angry about.

    White folks in general haven't had to care about anyone but themselves, so when they hear they aren't perfect, they don't like it. I can pat their ass about it or be frank but the reaction is about the same. And that's if they aren't running to me to excuse some damn bullshit. Why do you think people like Sokar and Muad loved to pat me on the head? If they were alive, Sokar for sure would have joined Volpone in cheering Ramen for that lynching photo he posted years ago over board policy.

    If someone's ears are open, they will hear, regardless of the language.
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  17. AlphaMan

    AlphaMan The North Remembers...

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    Agreed!


    I’ll go a little further... I object to the phrase “white supremacy “ itself. Not only does my use of it imply that I myself think that someone is better or worse because of their skin color, but I don’t think it necessarily describes the people who consider themselves “white supremacist.”
    I’d prefer the term “white extremist” because I think most of them just prefer to live among other whites.


    I know there will always be people who object to any idea from a liberal but if you asked most cops if they feel equipped to be the end-all-be-all to public safety, they will tell you no. The phrase “defund the police” automatically puts everyone on the defensive when what we really want is a better approach to public safety and not putting cops in a position where a bad outcome is inevitable.
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  18. AlphaMan

    AlphaMan The North Remembers...

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    You are absolutely right here, but let me ask you this... what's wrong with saying exactly what you mean? You know Fox News and the Ditto-heads are going to construe what you want in the worst possible light. Do you really want revenge on the police or do you want a more inclusive, more effective mechanism for public safety?
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  19. Shirogayne

    Shirogayne 1/06 Was An Inside Job Formerly Important

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    "Defund the police" means exactly that: pull the money going towards giving every Mayberry PD SWAT equipment and put that toward things that reduce crime: housing reform to get homeless people off the streets; setting up hotlines for counselors for people having mental emergencies that police with guns will only make worse; fund the damn schools so kids can be educated; decriminalize consentual sex work, etc.
    Many PDs are grossly overfunded in relation to many other services that could be used to mitigate the need for cops in the first place.

    Actually, this drawing hits it on the mark:

    defund.jpg

    We can spoodfeed any and every idea and FOX will twist it around, because that is literally their job to think up ways to hate groups of people. To hell with them. :shrug:

    "Defund" is a step down from "Abolish" but the latter is a pipe dream, at least in our lifetimes. But I agree that cops have too many hats and most can't wear more than one or two very well.
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  20. AlphaMan

    AlphaMan The North Remembers...

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    To address the broader topic, I've seen some ideas in race relations that say it's no longer enough to not be racist, that one should strive to be "anti-racist." I can't help but think that something so absurd as "stop being white" derived from the anti-racist idea, but if it did, they should go back re-read the material.
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  21. Shirogayne

    Shirogayne 1/06 Was An Inside Job Formerly Important

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    Yeah. No one can control their skin color, but they can control what they do with whatever privilege we have...and we all have *some* form of such, even most marginalized people.
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  22. AlphaMan

    AlphaMan The North Remembers...

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    :lol:

    I've never seen that cartoon before but that's perfect!

    But think about this. In your first post that I responded to, you started one paragraph with:

    In the very next paragraph, you concluded:

    We are playing an "Away game" here. I think both of the things you say are true, but we have to make the general public see that even though things have worked for you guys so well for a long time, things haven't been all that great for us. There is considerable room for improvement that will ultimately make your lives better too, we just have to have the courage to move forward. I'm sure you've heard of the concept of an "Industrial complex" before and I think that's what we're up against here. If we do this the right way, we might even get some cops to jump on board.
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  23. garamet

    garamet "The whole world is watching."

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    I've had this exact argument (and used that exact cartoon) with a couple of cops, but they don't see it that way. And their daily experience tells them that any kind of reform is never going to happen. I can't think of a worse term than "defund," but I also can't think of one that encompasses all of the issues in the cartoon. :(

    Conversation I had recently with a NYPD Transit cop: There was a homeless guy who used to loiter on a particular subway platform during rush hour, drop his pants and drop a load. He'd be arrested, hauled off for a psych eval., held for x-number of days until he proved he was sane enough to sign himself out. He had family in Westchester who refused to get involved, so he bounced back and forth from the subway platform to the loony bin and free again. The only thing that ended his little bit of "performance art" is that the sumbitch died.

    None of that is the responsibility of the officers called to respond to his behavior. But he was just one of hundreds of hot potatoes the court system keeps handing off to someone else. :(
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  24. Elwood

    Elwood I know what I'm about, son.

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    Until there is a comprehensive plan put in place by ALL of the stakeholders, nothing will change. Defunding the police is dangerous without building the other support systems first. You want more social workers and mental health beds? Great. I'm all for it. But, you're going to have to hire them and build them first. There were many times where someone would meet the criteria for an involuntary commit and there were simply no, zero beds available within 100 air miles of City Hall.

    We had a regular. The guy needed help. But, at the time, I had no help to offer. He was crazy and, being honest, a little scary. He ended up doing a stint in State Prison where he bulked up because there's nothing to do but work out all day. When he got out, he stopped taking his meds and he went back to his old shenanigans. The State mental health people didn't have the manpower to check on him like they should or the legal authority to make him take his meds. He was literally no-trespassed from every single building on the main street in town. Step off the sidewalk and go to jail for 30 days. Every time I saw him, I'd wonder if today was the day he would finally flip his lid. He ended up doing his aggressive panhandling routine at a barbershop on the wrong side of down and it cost him his life. He pissed off the wrong patron and wouldn't leave when ordered to do so, so he got a single punch to the forehead that was hard enough to kill him. When I was looking at the body, he would forever have the masonic symbol dented in his forehead from the ring of the guy that hit him.
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  25. garamet

    garamet "The whole world is watching."

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    ^I wasn't sure how to rep that post. Sad, yes, but also a thank-you for reporting from the inside.
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  26. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    I'm not sure I follow this - I can choose to acknowledge or reject the premise of white privilege, but that has little to do with whether the privilege exists.

    It of course does in the US, but many of the advantages are not something that is tangible. I can't help the fact that my family had the ability to accumulate wealth when others didn't - even though my father died penniless and I will inherit nothing. I can't help the fact that due to myopic laws I no doubt received a better primary school education than others - even though there were minorities in my class that also had that benefit. I can't help the fact that due to my family being middle-class whites we were more likely to be given lenient treatment by the police, which I'm sure happened on several occasions - even though I was drug off of my couch in handcuffs for what amounted to being poor.

    Ultimately, I'm not against white privilege.

    For all the exceptions I listed, the benefits are real if not always tangible.

    But in my opinion, those things should be benefits of citizenship, for everyone. We should all have a system that benefits us, that takes care of us, and tries to provide better futures, especially for those who need more help.

    And yes, I acknowledge we have a long way to go to get there.

    But ultimately I think it is far more constructive to work towards uplifting people, and that's one of the reasons I moved from a conservative stance 15 years ago towards a more liberal one now.

    IMO it is particularly fraught time because those I oppose, on the right, are seeing that the balance point is tipping, and they made a concerted effort to reimpose values that included debasing people based on race and sex for their own benefit.

    And yes, that would have benefited me.

    But it was also abhorrent and had to be stopped.

    We'll never see eye to eye past this point is because your next POV seems to be to wipe out everything we currently have achieved so we can rebuild more equitably, which I believe will no doubt lead to considerable death and suffering, whereas I prefer to move to a more just system with what we have.

    If your answer is we need to get rid of white privilege by getting rid of all my family has fought to achieve for our own security, the answer is no.

    My answer is I'm more than willing to vote to peacefully inaugurate a more just society, and yes I understand that likely means I pay far more in taxes. But I am more than willing to do so.
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  27. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    I think this was oriented toward me, if not I apologize. My answer wouldn't be the same as Alpha's, but his was great.

    I think there's a lot of different ways to express it, as long as it ultimately doesn't translate hypocritically. Don't attack identity, and perhaps that's not what Amaris means when they refer to 'whiteness' but it's definitely going to be taken that way by many. No one can control who they are, and fairness means ultimately that it's not reasonable to attack that aspect of their existence.

    There's a controversial work by Yuval Noah Harari Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind. While I think he over generalizes on several occasions, one core concept I think he struck home with - that we aren't biologically adept at including others within our concept of 'self' or 'tribe' past a few dozen individuals.

    Ultimately it takes a broader thought construct to allow this to happen, which is how we moved from tribes to city-states to nations and broad, overarching religions. Each in turn allowed us to accept more of the 'other' inside our narrative of self.

    But an attack on identity is likely to reflexively exclude said individuals in that narrative structure. We are animals, meat machines, we try to do better but at this point somethings are still reflexive and difficult to overcome.

    Whether you decribe it as extremism as Alpha so eloquently put it, or privilege, or supremacy, it allows people to be more receptive.

    Especially when you are asking them to work against their own self-interest, and centuries of lies that were inculcated to rationalize that interest.

    I mean, hell, I was in my early 40s before I learned of the Wilmington race massacre. It's both true that white people have done some pernicious, damn near infernal shit to POC, and that most individuals now aren't directly responsible for it.

    It was difficult enough to get people to process the worst aspects of that before we had a mass movement lead by POTUS stating that up is down and don't believe your own eyes.
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  28. spot261

    spot261 I don't want the game to end

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    No, whiteness is not synonymous with white supremacy.

    Whiteness is simply the fact of being white, no more, no less. That's literally what the word means.

    If you are equating that with white supremacy it follows that being white means being a white supremacist. No after the after the fact qualifiers.

    I am white, you are white.

    Comfortable with that logic? Can you see why it's not only intellectually dishonest but an impossible idea to sell? It follows inevitably from your assertions after all.

    You and I are, by your own logic, white supremacists. Any time you benefitted in any sense whether wittingly or otherwise from being white you were acting as a white supremacist.

    I'm sure if you step back you'll agree that's not only an absurd position but a deeply unhelpful one at that.
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  29. Amaris

    Amaris Guest

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    You're certainly digging around the root of the problem. You worry about having to give up everything you've worked for in order to create a more equitable society, and that's because capitalism encourages inequality. Hell, it depends upon it, because in capitalism, profit is produced by exploiting either the worker, the customer, or both. It's a system of exploitative processes built upon one another, and then white people claim they can make a democracy work inside of it, but it doesn't. The United States recognizes that corporations are people. You, as a regular worker, have no power here, not unless you come together with others. What you fear being taken away can already be taken away at the stroke of a pen.
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  30. Amaris

    Amaris Guest

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    You'll either work past the roadblock or you won't. I stand by my position.