techno-racism? Legit or bulls**t? You - make - the - call wordforge!

Discussion in 'The Red Room' started by oldfella1962, May 9, 2021.

  1. matthunter

    matthunter Ice Bear

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    By the way, Netflix has a documentary called Coded Bias (https://www.codedbias.com/screen) about AI researcher Joy Buolamwini, who first bought many of these issues to light after discovering that facial recognition wouldn't "see" her until she put on a white mask and subsequently challenged the big tech companies over it.

    Gotta love OF's "well, if the black folk think it's a problem, they should resolve it themselves!" shit though. They could always make their own water fountains or run their own bus companies too, right?
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  2. oldfella1962

    oldfella1962 the only real finish line

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    if memory serves that movie came out about the same time another military comedy came out - a reboot of Sergeant Bilko with Steve Martin as Sergeant Bilko.
  3. oldfella1962

    oldfella1962 the only real finish line

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    apples & oranges but I'll never bust through your ignorance if I try to explain it to you anyway.
  4. Tererun

    Tererun Troll princess and Magical Girl

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    yeah Matt, you are the racist one for noticing racism.

    You get him oldracist.
  5. Elwood

    Elwood I know what I'm about, son.

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    A fantastic documentary on the life of the submariner. :bergman:
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  6. Raoul the Red Shirt

    Raoul the Red Shirt Professional bullseye

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    There is no place, at least in my reading, where anyone says "people are intentionally discriminating in creating these systems," and two quotes where people explicitly say that it is happening even assuming a lack of intentions:

    Now the implication can be taken that there may be an element of intentional discrimination, but I invite you to point to a place in the article where anyone says that the people who are behind these flawed systems are intentionally discriminating, rather than having not properly screened assumptions or data that have racial implications.
  7. Order2Chaos

    Order2Chaos Ultimate... Immortal Administrator

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    Doesn't sound intentional to you?
  8. tafkats

    tafkats That'll put marzipan in your pie plate, bingo! Moderator

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    No, and that's exactly the point: We need to critically examine the data we put into things so that we can make sure we aren't just creating a "garbage in, garbage out" situation.
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  9. Raoul the Red Shirt

    Raoul the Red Shirt Professional bullseye

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    No, because as the other parts of the article say explicitly and common sense should tell folks, implicit bias is a thing that does not require intention to discriminate. And that is what this article talks about. No one is contending in the article that big companies are intentionally designing sucky facial recognition programs, programs that purposely redline, etc etc. Nothing in the article says that what makes the data racist is not programmers in white hoods saying they're a-gonna get those negros. There is not an example of a single person in the article explicitly claiming that the bias being shown is by design, and there are the counter-examples of people explicitly saying that the bias in these systems seems to be happening not just without it being intended, but in the case of the one quote giving the programmers the benefit of actually having the intention of creating a fair system.
    Last edited: May 11, 2021
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  10. matthunter

    matthunter Ice Bear

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    If there's racism in the situation, it's the systemic low-level racism of not bothering to think "hang on, is the data we're putting in representative?" before doing it, because the industry itself is predominantly white so it seemed representative to them.
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  11. oldfella1962

    oldfella1962 the only real finish line

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    Bottom line the technology needs to be fixed or something entirely different needs to be developed to fill the need.
  12. Raoul the Red Shirt

    Raoul the Red Shirt Professional bullseye

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    In fairness, there could be intentional racism on the part of some actors in some of these cases. It's entirely possible that someone is fully aware of, say, the history of redlining and either deliberately did not adjust the data to account for it or is actively like "Good . I want to be able to continue to profit from it/keep the darkies in their neighborhoods." It's also possible that even when people brought the potential racism issues to light, the powers that be were like,"Meh," which I would contend is its own form of racism.

    But the premise of the article stresses implicit bias as the likely culprit rather than deliberate choices to discriminate.

    I also should take issue that, as presented, there doesn't seem to be much doubt about "if there's racism in the situation" given the disparate racial impact. And "systemic low-level racism" is sort of an oxymoron. Facial recognition software that can get me and mine arrested because the people who programmed it didn't work it out to figure that not all Black people look alike and housing software that makes the houses of me and mine worth less than they should be because it calculates based on outdated data are not what I would consider "low-level" problems.
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  13. matthunter

    matthunter Ice Bear

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    I meant "low-level" in that it's not at the point a person would even consider themselves to HAVE a racial bias until it was pointed out, and they would probably argue the point even after it was. The consequences are, as you say, still horrible.
  14. Jenee

    Jenee Ind. Jenee of Winterfell

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    This is why people think you are racist. I get it. I am not good with remembering faces either. The older I get, the worse it gets. I've had many black friends and colleagues tell me, over the years, that when they first met me they thought I was racist - because I couldn't remember them from one meeting to the next. It's not until after knowing me awhile that they realized I'm like that with everyone. I'm pretty good with names, though. I have friends from high school contact me on facebook. I remember their names, but looking their pics - even from 40+ years ago when I knew them, I don't remember their faces.

    So, here's my advice, rather than saying "take any 100 Koreans of the same gender and approximate age and try to tell them apart", just say "I'm not good with differentiating faces". The problem isn't that Koreans all look alike, it's that you are not familiar with their features enough to identify an individual.
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  15. oldfella1962

    oldfella1962 the only real finish line

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    How much time have you actually spent in Korea Jenee? :waiting: And it's not just their facial features (but I'm sure you knew that). Many of them are the same height and build and of course hair color. I did see one Korean with reddish hair & freckles however out of the many thousands I've seen or spent time with. But I guess pointing out the obvious physical traits is racist - whatever.
    Spend a couple of years there (right in the middle of Seoul with about 12,000,000 of them within spitting distance) and get back with me, okay?
  16. Jenee

    Jenee Ind. Jenee of Winterfell

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    And you think just because white people have varied hair color means we don't all look alike to other cultures? I'll tell you what, live one day as any other person on the planet - except a white person, then get back to me about how you think other people view white people.
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  17. matthunter

    matthunter Ice Bear

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    It's worth noting that this issue isn't just limited to race. My OU materials for the Robotics block cover AI and machine learning and pointed to this case: