The Constitution and Coronavirus

Discussion in 'The Red Room' started by Nova, Dec 17, 2020.

  1. Lanzman

    Lanzman Vast, Cool and Unsympathetic Formerly Important

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    They're a part of the economy. Wishing otherwise does not make that untrue.

    Think of it this way: the economy is basically a game with a fairly simple ruleset. But the simple rules generate a very complex environment. Some people will naturally start out with a better ability to play the game, whether by native talent or inheriting some kind of head start. And some will cheat. But it's still all part of the game.
  2. Lanzman

    Lanzman Vast, Cool and Unsympathetic Formerly Important

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    Your view is interesting and understandable, but incorrect.
  3. Spaceturkey

    Spaceturkey official beverage of antifa

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    I'm working a riff off of "l'etat c'est moi"...

    How does this not apply to uber wealthy individuals when we've seen Amazon try to bully states and municipalities?
  4. Spaceturkey

    Spaceturkey official beverage of antifa

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    ah yes... "gods and clods"/"divine right" type of shit, huh?

    you really do have that list backwards... inheritance is pretty much the only opportunity left to a growing majority.
    talent is pretty much meaningless without connections/some form of nepotism
    and let's face it, if you weren't getting so well paid by the government would your skills be nearly as lucrative?

    It's nice for you that you can think of it as a game... but for the millions who put in their 60 hrs a week doing necessary work at two jobs, the system has failed.

    You live in a country where a first responder has to sell nude pics after working a second gig FFS. How is that any sort of progress since 1850?
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  5. K.

    K. Sober

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    No. You're wrong, and you know it; you'd try to make your point if you thought you had one.
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  6. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    Cheating, by definition, is NOT part of the game.

    Doesn't it seem like over and over again we see conservatives just don't give any fucks at all about morality or decency?
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  7. Nova

    Nova livin on the edge of the ledge Writer

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    oh it was communism and no one should ever try it again, economically it leads to a lot of misery - or seems to - but the massive murder sprees?

    That wasn't a function of bad economic ideas - it was a function of totalitarian government.
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  8. Nova

    Nova livin on the edge of the ledge Writer

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    there are not enough such people left in western democracies to ever achieve power. If "communism" ever happens again it will be because a totalitarian rises to power in a socialist government and sees a pretense at communism as a path to solidifying their grip. A cover story for getting bloodthirsty. It will be communism but communism won't be the objective but a tool. As a proportion of the whole, hardly anyone actually thinks it will work as an economic system anymore.
  9. Nova

    Nova livin on the edge of the ledge Writer

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    But the key here is that you say "within some limits" about capitalism and not about communism. I mean, I agree that communism gives every indication of being a failed idea that won't work but you skew the comparison when you admit that capitalism only works within the boundries set for it.

    I'd add that not just any boundaries will do, and that while it works for the things it is good at, it fails in other regards and thus must be mixed with certain non-capitalistic processes in order to thrive
  10. Nova

    Nova livin on the edge of the ledge Writer

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    the problem is that without the right rules, eventually the "decisions" are made under duress that amounts to no decision at all (see, for example, sharecroppers)
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  11. Nova

    Nova livin on the edge of the ledge Writer

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    Which circumstance suggests one needs to revise the rules of the game.
  12. Bailey

    Bailey It's always Christmas Eve Super Moderator

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    They are some of the drivers of economic activity, but so much of what we describe as "the economy" is based around centrally designed and managed rules.
  13. Bailey

    Bailey It's always Christmas Eve Super Moderator

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    Who in this thread is advocating for communism?
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  14. oldfella1962

    oldfella1962 high speed, low drag

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    You missed the joke. "My 2 cents" is a common American expression. "Everybody's 2 cents" is implying that communism would not recognize the 2 cents as being my 2 cents, because it should be shared by everybody.

    Regardless exponential stripping of liberties is the hallmark of communism. If a society fully embraces communism (rather than socialism) all aspects of that society will be communist because the state must have absolute and total control. For those who say nobody has gotten communism right yet, I disagree. A failed, miserable, oppressive state is "getting it right" concerning communism and this has indeed already been achieved with tragic results.
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  15. Bickendan

    Bickendan Custom Title Administrator Faceless Mook Writer

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    Incorrect.
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  16. Demiurge

    Demiurge Goodbye and Hello, as always.

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    Yep. https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/aboutlawsregulationsquarantineisolation.html
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  17. oldfella1962

    oldfella1962 high speed, low drag

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    hmmm.....inheritance is the only opportunity for many yet myriad legal immigrants flock here and become very economically successful. :chris:
    Could it be that we are just plain being outworked ? :shrug:
    Could it be that America (and Canada) has irresponsible lazy people who would squander any inheritance they have anyway? And could it be that all these very successful immigrants have optimism, self discipline, tenacity and a strong work ethic? That seems to be a very workable method to being rich, and if not at least being financially stable. For those people the system hasn't failed! They probably left a place that has a "failed system" and they can tell you all about it.

    Bottom line it shouldn't come as a surprise that in America behind many economic hard-luck cases lies a lifetime of bad decisions.
    And I hope the police catch the person(s) that put a gun to the head of that first responder who was forced to sell nude pics.
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  18. Spaceturkey

    Spaceturkey official beverage of antifa

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    how lazy is someone who works 2-3 jobs?

    nobody "forced" her in the sense of physical coercion. I'd think you'd have more consideration for someone who has chosen to serve their community in a uniform?
  19. Nova

    Nova livin on the edge of the ledge Writer

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    "Look, see that dude there? He succeeded so if you didn't succeed clearly you are simply a lazy 'useless eater' and should accept your poverty as what you deserve."
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  20. Spaceturkey

    Spaceturkey official beverage of antifa

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    yeah... it confounds me how people who don't want to pay an extra 2% in tax are willing to give up 80% of what they produce to an "owner".
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  21. Bailey

    Bailey It's always Christmas Eve Super Moderator

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    You shouldn't make jokes about communism unless everyone can get it.
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  22. oldfella1962

    oldfella1962 high speed, low drag

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    I know first responders. They are great people, doing an important job. Sadly that job normally doesn't pay shit. You can literally make more stocking shelves than being an entry level first responder where I live. That doesn't make sense to me, but I'm not an economic or business expert. If you choose to work a low paying job that doesn't mean that the system has failed for everybody.
    Again if the system was such a failure I think the word would get out and immigrants would stop coming here. Or better yet Americans would be jumping ship for greener pastures, and I'm sure some do, and that's fine and I respect their choice.

    Bottom line the system isn't perfect but it works much better than communism. I would suggest living a few years in a communist country and report back with your findings.
  23. garamet

    garamet "The whole world is watching."

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    (A) Tell us again how many years you lived in a communist country. Provide details. Maybe post photos of yourself standing in front of local landmarks.

    (B) If you haven't figured out simply from reading threads in the RR, much less from the world at large, that salaries for first responders vary VASTLY depending upon state, county, region, city/small town/rural area, then you're dimmer than I thought.
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  24. Spaceturkey

    Spaceturkey official beverage of antifa

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    Except the system IS failing an insane percentage of people... shelf stocking I believe is one of her other jobs.
    Up here two of the country's ten richest are grocery magnates (add: most of the others are real estate barons or backed with it)... do with that what you will.

    Why do you have to keep going to the soviet/maoist strawman when we talk about a society where there are enough jobs that spending 40 hours at will feed and shelter someone?

    Why are you against the basic health care you receive as a vet being extended to all Americans?
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2020
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  25. K.

    K. Sober

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    First responders didn't choose to work a low paying job, they chose to be first responders. It's capitalism that punishes their good choices. And yes, since everyone can come to need first responders, urgently, that does mean that the system has failed everyone.
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  26. K.

    K. Sober

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    Such as?
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  27. Nova

    Nova livin on the edge of the ledge Writer

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    Here's the thing I don't understand about hard-core capitalist conservatives:

    They don't believe in restricting an employers ability to do as they will concerning employee compensation
    The don't believe in government funds going to those who are in such poverty they can't keep a roof over their head despite working reliably
    They don't believe in raising taxes on the wealthy to fund such relief

    AND YET
    they never express the faintest disapproval of billionaires paying their employees so little that said employees need relief from the government in order to not be homeless.

    If you REALLY don't believe in "welfare" then why are you effectively subsidizing the fortunes of the Waltons and Bezos and others by making it possible for them to pay poverty wages?

    Mind you, I'm a capitalist - but my capitalism ends where exploitation begins. Even the Bible says a worker is worthy of his wages, and their should be rules - and unions - to prevent labor exploitation.
    (among other exploitation such as of natural resources and customers and so forth)
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  28. Spaceturkey

    Spaceturkey official beverage of antifa

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    mass unemployment
    child malnourishment
    lack of medical care
    crumbling infrastructure
    massive economic inequity
    rigid social hierarchy...

    hang on, where were we talking about again?
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  29. Nova

    Nova livin on the edge of the ledge Writer

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    A. it is not necessary for a system to have failed *everybody* for it to be a failed system. Communism hasn't failed a certain segment of powerful Chinese leaders but...

    B. If you go to,m say, China and you look around at certain...negatives...you have to deal with the question still remains - are those negatives an inherent result of the economic system known as communism...or ar the result of a totalitarian government building concentration camps and trying to wipe out an entire religion and putting you in jail for insulting the leader and so forth?
    How is it that the their pogram against Muslims has fuck all to do with their economic system? it doesn't.
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  30. Bailey

    Bailey It's always Christmas Eve Super Moderator

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    I'd say if you look at China despite the many many flaws of that country their unique mixture of communist and capitalist actions has led to one of the swiftest and largest growths in personal wealth among the common people ever.

    That doesn't mean they're a model to follow though.
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