Trouble in America

Discussion in 'The Red Room' started by T.R, May 27, 2020.

  1. Forbin

    Forbin Do you feel fluffy, punk?

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    Yabbut - Newark!
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  2. Raoul the Red Shirt

    Raoul the Red Shirt Professional bullseye

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  3. Jenee

    Jenee Ind. Jenee of Winterfell

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  4. GhostEcho

    GhostEcho Yojimbo

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  5. Raoul the Red Shirt

    Raoul the Red Shirt Professional bullseye

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    Probably not if the prosecutor went by standard ethical guidelines for prosecutors (i.e. prosecutors should not bring cases where they do not have a good faith belief a conviction can be obtained.)

    I watched part of the live press conference on the case, and he articulated some things that I think often get lost.

    Including that observers think things like, "Well, just bring the case and let the jury decide." or "Bring the case and strike a blow for racial justice and tosend a message to bad cops that there will be consequences" or "But Jacob Blake and his family deserrve better." But those things are not things on which to base a charging decision.

    According to him, the state would have the burden of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that self-defense didn't apply, and they would almost certainly have failed to disprove self-defense.

    A big problem, according to the prosecutor, is that Jacob Blake would have been a terrible witness. He would be cross-examined about lying to investigators about his knowledge of the warrant for his arrest, and about claiming that he would never pull a knife on a cop with intent to stab anyone where there was a previous incident where he pulled a knife on other cops.
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2021
  6. GhostEcho

    GhostEcho Yojimbo

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    Although my question was mostly rhetorical, I do appreciate the details. Thank you.
  7. oldfella1962

    oldfella1962 high speed, low drag

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    I saw part of the press conference given by the prosecutor/DA or whomever. I came across it after it had started. But one of his comments was take skin color off the table and consider Blake's actions as the threat that they were - he had access to a knife, a history of violence, a kid in the car and was resisting arrest.
  8. Elwood

    Elwood I know what I'm about, son.

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    "Conduct Unbecoming an Officer." It's easy because "Conduct Unbecoming an Officer" is so nebulous that it's whatever the Chief says it is. Saw an Officer get fired one time for posting a dating profile on one of the early dating sites. All well and good except for two things. He used a picture of him wearing his uniform as the profile picture...and he was married.
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2021
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  9. shootER

    shootER Insubordinate...and churlish Administrator

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    And, more specifically, if the guy's employer has a social media policy (like many organizations do these days) that prohibits those kinds of posts, they could cut him loose that way as well.

    Violating my employer's social media policy can result in disciplinary measures, up to and including termination. Doesn't matter if it's a "personal" social media account or not because it still reflects badly on the company.
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  10. Raoul the Red Shirt

    Raoul the Red Shirt Professional bullseye

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    I would say that a good number of people and a good number of posters here would still say that shooting under these circumstance was wrong if we could take skin color out of the equation.

    He was "only" holding a knife. Couldn't they disarm him without shooting at him?

    They had him outnumbereed three to one. Why didn't they just jump on him?

    They did this shooting in front of his kid, who will now forever be scarred. How could they not factor in that there was his child right there and done something else?

    That's of course putting aside the notion that in our present society it is likely not possible to take skin color out of the equation for such incidents, nor likely desireable if one could.
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  11. Raoul the Red Shirt

    Raoul the Red Shirt Professional bullseye

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    Yeah, but you work for a private media outlet. Cops (generally) work for branches of government, which means that free speech rights under the Constitution come into play.

    If Elwood's unfaithful cop sued for violation of his First Amendment right to proclaim on the Internet that he's a cheating scumbag while connecting himself to his department, who knows how a jury might rule, but I don't like the city's chances in that one. It seems like it would be a stretch to argue that his being a cheater is going to be too disruptive to overcome free speech protections. At the same time, the ability to say "I'm a cheating scumbag" is not exactly the core of what the First Amendment is meant to protect.

    As to the original guy, the department would have a stronger argument that his off-duty speech presented a sizeable disruption, but his speech was political and therefore at the core of what is meant to receive First Amendment protection.
  12. garamet

    garamet "The whole world is watching."

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    Have you ever had to protect one of your kids from a perceived threat? :garamet:
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  13. oldfella1962

    oldfella1962 high speed, low drag

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    human bag o' hammers stupidity never ceases to amaze me. Best "stupid cop" story ever: way back in the day in Korea a bud of mine was driving across a bridge in Seoul during a very heavy rainy period. The current was really strong and almost up to the bottom of the bridge. Well my bud was stuck in traffic and got a good long look at what looked like a dead body :scary: in army camo BDU's floating and bobbing along. So as soon as my bud made it across the river he found a business with a phone and called the Yongson MP office. He told the cop he just saw what might be a US soldier drowning or dead in the river over the PanPo bridge. The cop actually asked him....wait for it....try not to laugh......or maybe cry....if the soldier was heading upstream or downstream. :facepalm:
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  14. Elwood

    Elwood I know what I'm about, son.

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    Let me say up front that I know next to nothing about this situation. I purposefully avoid most police stories for the same reason many veterans don't watch war movies. But, I have had many guns and knives pointed at me over the years. I have faced many people armed with knives both by myself and with other Officers.

    Each situation was different and I didn't respond exactly the same way to any of them. But, I can say that the only time we tried what you're suggesting, I ended up in emergency surgery, I was out of work for six weeks, and there's a Purple Heart (State of Alabama, not DoD) hanging on my office wall.

    I will continue to advocate for more and better tools for Law Enforcement because I know they save lives. I know, first hand, of a time a guy was Tased during a domestic incident when he refused to drop the knives he was wielding. Just six months prior, he would have been shot and that would have been that.
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  15. garamet

    garamet "The whole world is watching."

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    Maybe he wanted to know where to send the rescue team/morgue wagon?

    As for dumb as a bag o' hammers, if there were a Nobel Prize...
  16. shootER

    shootER Insubordinate...and churlish Administrator

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  17. oldfella1962

    oldfella1962 high speed, low drag

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    "He was "only" holding a knife. Couldn't they disarm him without shooting at him?
    They had him outnumbered three to one. Why didn't they just jump on him?"

    :wtf: imagine you are one of the three cops who have him outnumbered - would you be the first cop to close the distance and engage him? More people are killed and crippled by "only" knives than guns!
    I know quite a few folks who have been shot and/or cut. I'm not a fan of either, but from how they describe it all things considered I'll take my chances with a bullet * over a blade every time.

    * Hand gun, not long gun. And of course shotguns turn you into ground beef. :yuck:
  18. garamet

    garamet "The whole world is watching."

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    Again, your child is in the car. You don't want anything to happen to your child. What do you do - grovel?
  19. Uncle Albert

    Uncle Albert Metal health

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    So this was just a protective parent, acting on instinct triggered by the proximity of his children. Is that the narrative you're commiting to?
  20. Raoul the Red Shirt

    Raoul the Red Shirt Professional bullseye

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    To be clear, I am not personally suggesting those things and as my many rantings and ravings in this thread and the Defund the Police thread tend to show, I tend to give law enforcement far more leeway than others on the left.

    If there were a scale where a 1 is "All/most cops are heaven-sent heroes," a 3 is "there are a few bad apples but police are still generally awesome," a 7 is "systemic racism has widely infected policing way more than other professions" and a 10 is "all cops are bastards," I'd probably put myself at around a 5-6.

    That said, I think it is important to look at the individual circumstances of a case and realize that the murder of George Floyd is not the same as the shooting of Jacob Blake.

    To briefly sum up the facts of the case as I understand it, the cops got sent out because Blake stole the car of the mother of his children, had a felony sexual assault warrant out for him, and on finding him, he ignored repeated commands, wouldn't submit when the officers tried taking him down, took the Taser prongs out when the officers deployed a Taser, and went to grab a knife and made a threatening move with it before he was shot.

    Like I said above and elsewhere, that is not how I personally think, hence putting only in quotes.

    I am well aware that a knife is not a matter of "only," that the person with a knife can -- especially in close quarters -- cause injury or even death. But like I said, some people think that bringing a knife to a gunfight is a sure loss, or that the level of training of cops should be such that they should be able to disarm an attacker with a knife without using a gun, etc., so the officer would be in the wrong for shooting a person with a knife. That's not what I think common sense (to me, anyway) says, and more importantly, it's not what the law says.

    I hate to sound reactionary, but I comply with the officer's commands. Or I don't go out of my way to try to get a knife. No groveling necessary. And if I'm being unjustly arrested, I sue the crap out of them.

    Yes, there are obviously cases where officers have still injured people who posed no threat and who have surrendered to them. But that is relatively rare, and again, if I am unjustifiably shot (or even justifiably shot in some cases), then there's the consolation that I or my family will potentially win a lawsuit over it.
  21. garamet

    garamet "The whole world is watching."

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    It's a hypothesis. I wasn't there any more than you were.
  22. Elwood

    Elwood I know what I'm about, son.

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    Oh, I know. I wasn't intending to be confrontational. The local Municipal Patrol guys work approximately 160-ish 12-hour shifts per year. You're going to average between 6-12 calls per shift. So, lets split the middle and say they're going to average answering 1,500 calls per year per Officer. That's just calls for service. That's not just spotting something in progress or just something suspicious and worth keeping an eye on. That's not just running into someone on the street. None of those situations are going to be identical, year after year, over the course of a career.

    That's why it's so important to have good people and good tools.

    The guy I mentioned up thread? Got drunk, beat the crap out of his significant other, and when he found out she had called the Police, he duct-taped butcher knives to his hands because he had no intention of being taken alive. When Police arrived, he walked out of his front door threatening to kill them all. The Police were ready to shoot him, and would have been totally justified in doing so, but one of the Officers wanted to try the Taser first. It worked. As far as I know, that guy is still alive today, albeit in prison. If it hadn't worked, he would be dead.

    I'm glad it worked.
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  23. Jenee

    Jenee Ind. Jenee of Winterfell

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    I've seen cops tackle and take down white guys with a knife without any shots fired. Why are cops so afraid of black men that their first instinct is to shoot?
  24. GhostEcho

    GhostEcho Yojimbo

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    They tried to subdue Jacob Blake. They even tased him. He still kept going for the knife. It was hardly "their first instinct" to shoot.
  25. Jenee

    Jenee Ind. Jenee of Winterfell

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    So, three grown men could not tackle and take down one black dude?
  26. oldfella1962

    oldfella1962 high speed, low drag

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    Oh I see- sorry. I would hate to think that you actually posited that taking down a knife-holding suspect was a cakewalk. Anyway for those who are upset that a kid had to see all this violence, drama and bloodshed all of it could have been avoided if Blake would have calmed the fuck down and cooperated. Many thousands of people across America engage the police every day and the vast & overwhelming majority end peacefully. Obviously that doesn't make the news because it isn't news, it's the norm and facts/statistics back that up in every single study.
  27. oldfella1962

    oldfella1962 high speed, low drag

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    :facepalm:
    1) every situation is different
    2) every cop is different
    3) rarely does anybody have time to ruminate over skin color, social justice, etc. when they are in a life-and-death situation. It's what I call a "galvanizing moment" where every detail involving reality comes into ultra-sharp focus and everything else non-essential is temporarily on the back-burner. Blame evolution for that I guess.
  28. Jenee

    Jenee Ind. Jenee of Winterfell

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    I don't buy it. That's an over used excuse and I do not buy it. If they can take down white men without a shot fired, there's no reason they cannot do the same for black men.
  29. GhostEcho

    GhostEcho Yojimbo

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    With a knife.
  30. Jenee

    Jenee Ind. Jenee of Winterfell

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    WHAAAAH, He's got a knife!!!!!!!!111!!! and he's (gasp) ...BLACK!!!!!!!!