Trumpian slash-and-burn/salt the fields of the enemies thread

Discussion in 'The Red Room' started by garamet, Nov 25, 2020.

  1. garamet

    garamet "The whole world is watching."

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    I wonder whether the pro-death-penalty crowd has any idea how much it costs to keep a prisoner on death row as opposed to gen pop. Silly me, though, I prefer we (A) end the for-profit prison system, three-strikes laws, and arbitrary sentences based on melanin and/or "a [perceived] risk to society." Then we can (B) figure out community service for nonviolent crimes, an end to that "Have you ever been arrested?" question on employment applications (or at least make it voluntary, so that the HR person can ask "I see you put down 'Decline to Answer.' Would you like to tell me in confidence so I can decide whether you'd be a 'good fit' for our company?" Oh, and (C) thumbscrews and solitary for embezzlement and other white-collar crime. :bailey:
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  2. Raoul the Red Shirt

    Raoul the Red Shirt Professional bullseye

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    There's no meaningful difference in killing someone wrt time to contemplate whether the execution is justiified between lethal injecion and any other means. In any case in the modern era, there is going to be at least a year (I would think) between when a death sentence is imposed and when it is carried out. The Interwebs seem to suggest it is on average 15 years. That is a lot of time to contemplate the sort of bigger questions about the sentence.

    Moreover, there is not a meaningful difference in the actual execution. It probably takes (let's say) a minute it takes to kill someone by firing squad versus 10 minutes it typically takes by lethal injection or some other means.
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  3. Tuckerfan

    Tuckerfan BMF Staff Member Moderator

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    If you were my lawyer, my only hope would be that Flashlight was the opposing counsel. Did you not read what @K wrote? He was musing that by using "humane" methods to execute people folks were trying to hide the fact that the death penalty itself was wrong. I was expanding upon this idea of his.

    Additionally, folks like The Innocence Project estimate that as many as 3% of the people on death row are wrongly convicted (and no, they're not able to exonerate everyone before it's too late). One of the delaying tactics lawyers use in death penalty cases is attacking the means of execution as being "cruel and unusual punishment." Not only does this keep their client alive a bit longer, but it also gives them a chance to turn up exculpatory evidence (which is often hidden by the prosecution). Clearing the name of a living person is seen as a lot more important than clearing the name of a dead person. So, if you can execute someone before they've had a chance to clear their name then it is less likely that the circumstances that resulted in them getting the death penalty will be examined. And if 3% (or really, any) of the people executed are innocent, that's a problem.

    If an innocent person gets locked up for life and then is later found to be innocent, society has some questions to answer. And because the person is still alive, they'll be most likely to be the one asking the questions. Having someone who can speak from first-hand experience of what it was like to be imprisoned for a crime they didn't commit, and how the system fought against every effort they made to clear their name is far more compelling listening than hearing a lawyer talk on behalf of someone who is dead.
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  4. oldfella1962

    oldfella1962 high speed, low drag

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    Well I'm just telling it like it is....don't shoot the messenger!
    Actually I don't have much interest in the death penalty. That said I'm probably in the minority here , but I believe that a life sentence is "cruel and unusual punishment".
    Here is why: if the state decides that you should be behind bars for the rest of your life then they have determined there is no hope for you to ever function in society. You cannot or will not be rehabilitated. What a soul-crushing existence that must be! And what if (through DNA evidence or whatever) you determine them to be innocent after decades behind bars.
    Big fucking whoop! They are now 75 years old and nearly their entire adult life has been wasted living a shitty, violent, depressing life. Thanks a lot motherfuckers! :brood:
    Would it be any more cruel to just just end their life the day you have decided to take it from them slowly over decades? Just my 2 cents!
  5. Raoul the Red Shirt

    Raoul the Red Shirt Professional bullseye

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    The discussion thus far was also about how shooting someone would be quicker to kill than lethal injection, including K's post about it taking 2 seconds vs 45 minutes. So I don't really still understand how you were expanding on what K was saying.

    "Killing quickly" doesn't happen in the broad scheme of the death penalty. And the actual form of the death penalty generally used is the slower method, lethal injection. Sorry for not understanding what your point is.

    You don't have to sell me on the problems with the death penalty. I'm against it.
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  6. oldfella1962

    oldfella1962 high speed, low drag

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    you are against the death sentence, as many people are. So what is the best alternative for people convicted of the most horrendous crimes? What does the state do with a convicted serial child rapist and murderer, for example?
  7. Shirogayne

    Shirogayne 1/06 Was An Inside Job Formerly Important

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    Yep, and besides even just that the whole system stinks when you calculate how many on death row are also black/brown, poor, mentally ill or some combination of the three.

    It also has been long proven not to make any impact to deter crime. :shrug:
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  8. Shirogayne

    Shirogayne 1/06 Was An Inside Job Formerly Important

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    Keep them in prison.

    Y'know, the way we do with drug users :shrug:

    It would actually be cheaper than death row because there aren't as many appeals.
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  9. MikeH92467

    MikeH92467 RadioNinja

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    Ever notice how many self-proclaimed "conservatives" are all for saving money, but when it's pointed out that things like universal medical care and doing away with the death might save money it's :lalala:
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  10. The Ghost of Crazy Horse

    The Ghost of Crazy Horse Soul Rebel

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    I’d rather keep my own money than the state “save” it for me.
  11. Tuckerfan

    Tuckerfan BMF Staff Member Moderator

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    The last line of his post
    Because if they felt bad about it, then they might stop doing it. And we can't have that, because if we did, then we might notice that there are huge problems with our justice system. Like executing innocent people. You know, burying our mistakes.

    So, rather than agonize over the nature of our justice system, they can rationalize how it operates by pushing "humane" methods. Look, we know what happens to people, emotionally and mentally, who have to repeatedly carry out executions. They start going crazy. That's a problem, so we come up with methods that make it seem like someone is undergoing a routine medical procedure, sitting in a chair, or taking a shower. That way it's all over in a short period of time, and we don't have to think about what happened or why it happened, and the people who did the deed aren't overly traumatized.
    Goody for you.
  12. oldfella1962

    oldfella1962 high speed, low drag

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    It would be cheaper, but then we would be putting lawyers out of work without all those time intensive appeals! :cry: For all intents & purposes "death row" might as well just be a life sentence since people are sentenced to death a lot more often than executions are carried out.
  13. Raoul the Red Shirt

    Raoul the Red Shirt Professional bullseye

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    If I were the person who was making public policy and doing so on a secular basis, I would constrain the death penalty to be basically a handful of catgeories:

    1. Treason
    2. Murder for hire, or on behalf of organized crime, gang or other multiple conspiracy
    3. Multiple murder
    4. Murder of government officials (police officers, firefighters, politicians, etc) because of their government role
    5. Multiple rape

    That to me strikes a more proper balance between the state having justification for deeming some crimes irredeemable and avoiding wrongful convictions. Yes, it is still possible that someone could be wrongfully convicted of a single murder for hire/government official, single act of treason, or even multiple crimes. But the heinousness of these crimes is much higher than the typical murders that can earn the death penalty in many cases, and you are likely to avoid such things as the racial disparity in the death penalty as it currently exists.

    But as things stand, life in prison without the possibility of parole does a fine job generally speaking of protecting the public from a convicted murderer while a) not stooping to the level of an eye for an eye b) leaving open the possibility that the conviction might prove to be in error and at least somewhat making up for the mistake c) costing less than the death penalty.
  14. Raoul the Red Shirt

    Raoul the Red Shirt Professional bullseye

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    I get that and agree with the notion that we use the "humane" method because it would stops some people from questioning the death penalty. That's K's point.

    But humane =/= quicker, which is where I think I lost you.

    The time it takes for someone to die from a lethal injection is on average seven minutes, according to the Internet. There have been extreme cases where it took two hours.

    Firing squad's a minute or so.

    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/firing-squad-gas-chamber-how-long-executions-take-n329371
  15. Raoul the Red Shirt

    Raoul the Red Shirt Professional bullseye

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    Pretty sure the death penalty appellate lawyers would find something else to do.

    And unfortunately, it is not for most intents & purposes just a life sentence, because obviously people do still get executed, and obviously it costs far more (not just because of appeals but also because of the extra costs associated with the original prosecution/defense, special accommodations that come with being on death row, etc.),
  16. oldfella1962

    oldfella1962 high speed, low drag

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    Firing squad's less than one second if they do it my way. Shooting the heart is rarely instantaneous, despite what Hollywood would show us. Anyone with "boots on the ground" experience knows the deal on this. Regardless, the guillotine is pound-for-pound a very efficient method assuming proper maintenance isn't ignored.
  17. MikeH92467

    MikeH92467 RadioNinja

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    Uh...I don't get it. Would you rather spend more money for indigent medical care and enforcing the death sentence or spend less by having universal health care and doing away with the death sentence? I mean I'd like to not pay taxes at all, (who wouldn't?) but I don't think that's possible...so help me out by explaining what you meant. I'm listening. :waiting:
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  18. K.

    K. Sober

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    Only AFAIK -- perhaps I have misunderstood the US system -- that isn't true. A life sentence doesn't mean "you can never be rehabilitated", it means: "UNLESS you show signs of rehabilitation, you won't ever be set free". Rehabilitation and clemency hearings still go on. Am I wrong? If I am, then take this as a vote for a system that would function like that.
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  19. Bailey

    Bailey It's always Christmas Eve Super Moderator

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    Based on the fact that they aren't all trying to kill themselves, I'd venture to suggest that many of those convicted still prefer life to death.
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  20. oldfella1962

    oldfella1962 high speed, low drag

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    I forgot to mention "life without the possibility of parole". This means you will spend the rest of your natural life behind bars, full stop. That said if somehow mitigating circumstances or evidence surfaces to the contrary is presented, all bets are off. DNA technology is a big game-changer in overturning verdicts and maybe even more technological advances will free innocent people, who knows?
    Personally I very much agree that it's better for ten guilty men go free than to convict one innocent man. The burden of proof should always be on the state to prove their case.
    It's a hard pill for "the court of public opinion" to swallow but tough shit for them. Taking away somebodies freedom is a big, big deal IMHO.

    So to answer your question (a U.S. lawyer will be along to weigh in shortly) yes rehabilitation & clemency still go on for convicts serving a life sentence AFAIK.
  21. K.

    K. Sober

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  22. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

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    :vomit:
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  23. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

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    Anyways, no mention at all of the terrorist murder of the Iranian nuclear scientist Moshen Fakhrizadeh, with fingers being pointed at Israel, just days after high-level meetings involving Pompeo, Netenyanu and MBS in Saudi Arabia?
  24. Raoul the Red Shirt

    Raoul the Red Shirt Professional bullseye

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    I would have mentioned this but there is no confirmation of the level of the role that the Trump administration played in it, or that Trump himself was involved, or that it would not have happened anyway if Trump had won a second term.

    It's a reasonable assumption that Israel would have at least given the U.S. a head's up on the operation, of course.
  25. Raoul the Red Shirt

    Raoul the Red Shirt Professional bullseye

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    Someone can challenge their conviction as wrongful when new evidence arises pretty indefinitely, from what I understand, and depending on the nature of the evidence either win full out acquittal or a new trial where the evidence is presented.

    As to rehabilitation, the U.S. prison system generally does not make much of an effort to rehabilitate inmates. In some cases, it requires inmates to buy their own soap rather than give it to them as a matter of course.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/04/make-soap-free-prisons/609202/

    I am skeptical that anyone who truly believes that it is better than ten guilty men go free than one innocent person be found guilty could sleep at night given the ample evidence of how the real-world criminal justice system works (that people who received death sentences have later been exonerated, that people receive pressure to plead guilty even if innocent, that prosecutors get more resources and are far likely to parlay their jobs into judgeships and heck even the vice presidency than criminal defense lawyers, etc.).
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2020
  26. garamet

    garamet "The whole world is watching."

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    Another memo Trump didn't bother to read.
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  27. Jenee

    Jenee Ind. Jenee of Winterfell

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    The US penal system is not even remotely set up for rehabilitation. It only serves to create slave labor for private businesses and to make petty criminals into better criminals.

    The entire system needs an overhaul. I wrote a paper on this subject in college.
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  28. oldfella1962

    oldfella1962 high speed, low drag

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    Yeah I figured wordforge would have been all over this by now!
  29. Clippy

    Clippy Fresh Meat

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    If I thought this Trump guy was crazy before (and I completely did) he's now lost whatever chipped and broken marbles that were left over in his bag. Good fucking God.
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  30. Shirogayne

    Shirogayne 1/06 Was An Inside Job Formerly Important

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    If I'm being completely honest, the cost factor was the first time that got me thinking that the DP wasn't the way to go. The other stuff about the ethics and ineffectiveness came later. If we got rid of DP, that would mean more money for the military!

    Why does Oldfella hate troops? :( :weep:

    :diacanu:
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